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SPOILERS: GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire"

Discussion in 'Novels & Stories' started by Philip Overby, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    Dany was advised not to trust the Lion in that magic lady's dream sequence. I think Tyrion will end up being one of her three betrayals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  2. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    Oh yeah! I need to reread the books again, I forgot about the betrayals. Honestly there are certain key moments that stand out to me in the series so far, and other things I've forgotten about.

    Moments burned in my mind:

    1. The Red Wedding-most awesome scene in recent fantasy literature, I think.
    2. Joffrey's wedding-what is it with weddings?
    3. Dany "hatching" the dragons
    4. Tyrion plugging his old man
    5. Ned...oh...poor Ned
    6. The wolf pup scene
    7. The Battle of Blackwater

    Is it sad that most of the big moments I remember almost all involve people dying? Well, I guess not, because they all had emotional weight, and that is why I kept reading!
     
  3. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Sam, when that horse came out of the woods with the rime on its coat and dragging its intestines behind it.

    Lady's death (so monsterously unfair!!!!!!!!!!)

    The Queen of Thorns and her ladies pumping Sansa for information while the fool sang that song about the bear and the maiden fair

    Syrio's Last Stand

    Barristan Selmy being dismissed from Joffrey's service, and skewering guards as he left the city (probably more guards than we knew, as I expect Cersei sent an assassin team after him just to clean up loose ends)

    The Weasel Soup

    The battle between the Mountain and the Black Viper

    Tyrion and Cersei's meeting, the one where they threatened one another over supper


    Podrick Paine saving Tyrion's ass in the Battle Of the Blackwater
     
  4. kayd_mon

    kayd_mon Sage

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    I hated Dany throughout the first book until the very end. Then I loved her until Dance of Dragons, where she is again reduced to a whiny little girl again.

    Honestly, I didn't catch onto Jon's possible parentage, but if that theory pans out, then I'll be disappointed. Making him a Targaryen doesn't make his accomplishments nearly as satisfying.

    Tyrion as Dany's advisor will be great. Can't wait!

    Arya's storyline is actually my favorite. I love her whole journey, and her training to be a Faceless (wo)Man is awesome.

    Jon, assuming he survives (which I'm sure he will) will likely be placed in a very powerful position in the endgame.

    Dany and her dragons will win Westeros by roasting the Others, obviously. The intrigue, etc. is just to entertain us until the Others come through the Wall.
     
  5. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    Syrio Forel - Arya's Bravosi "dancing master" when he takes on 4 Lannister armored men with nothing but a wooden sword...to protect Arya.
    "The First Sword of Bravos does not run. Just so."
     
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  6. camradio

    camradio Scribe

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    I agree I am got so sick of her, her story is just dragging on.

    Ive talked with people about Jon's Oath and here is one possible scenario. The oath is "shall not end until my death." He gets stabbed at the wall, a la Caesar, and is killed. However he is brought back to life by the red lady through the fire kiss thing. So he was at the wall until his death. Now he can leave.

    R+L=J Rhagaer plus Lyanna equals Jon. This is a huge "conspiracy" on ASOIAF forums about this. I believe it.
     
  7. Shaun b.

    Shaun b. Dreamer

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    I don't even want to speculate what will happen to Jon, I certainly wasn't expecting what happened. Although does the priestess not say something along the lines of the Jon being reborn in fire?

    I quite like the idea of the hound just melting away into obscurity. Heros and Villains don't always die those remarkable deaths, although when his brother resurfaces the hound may make another appearance, although that's terribly straightforward for GRRM.

    I'm really enjoying Sansa at the minute, shes developing into a very rich character. Arya has one of the best plot lines although I cant work out where it's going, I'm quite happy just being dragged along on the journey.

    I'm interested to see what the Wildlings do after Jons assault, I find them fascinating.
     
  8. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    The most awesome comeuppances for me would be these:

    Jaime is the one who actually finally kills Cersei. I know, it's a stretch, but that would be amazing. Jaime faces off with the Mountain or some such. With one hand.

    I like the idea of Dany being involved with destroying the Others. That makes sense. That seems to be where the main conflict is heading. All these undead folks walking around.

    Arya gets to assassinate some people (maybe Melisandre or someone) and becomes like this badass faceless assassin.

    Those are just some speculations. We'll see what REALLY happens later I suppose.
     
  9. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    That would be nice. Cersei is quite the schemer, but she was an unbelievable idiot to alienate Jaime. That guy would have done anything for her- died for her without a moment's thought- and any emotional component aside, he is a very useful resource.
     
  10. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    I really want Arya to get Nymeria back.
     
  11. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    Yeah, that's true. Nymeria's been gone since A Game of Thrones, right? That would be awesome to have Arya show up with the wolf and be like, "Now what?" :)
     
  12. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I don't think it's a stretch. In fact, I think it's likely. Cersei is afraid of a prophecy some witch woman made to her that refers to her "little brother" strangling her to death. She thinks it's Tyrion, but Jaime is her younger brother, too. They're twins, but she came out first. And I can't see Tyrion strangling someone - but with only one hand, I can't see Jaime relying on a weapon besides his hand to kill. So I think it'll be him.
     
  13. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Tyrion has already strangled someone, did you forget?
     
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  14. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    Not only did he strangle someone, he did it with a chain. But, yeah, he only kills those that deserve it.

    If Jaime was the one who did the strangling, boy, would that be...something. Jaime is a weird character for me. I kind of want to see him completely redeem himself for all the horrible things he's done, but I get the sense as soon as he redeems himself, he'll go bye-bye. A fitting, and tragic end for the Kingslayer I think.
     
  15. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    I think he'll redeem himself only to be faced with another choice of whether or not to kill a king.... One that may be necessary while at the same time, destroy the redemption he earned.

    Pure speculation however....
     
  16. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    Yes, I did forget.
     
  17. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    I dunno, he alienated me a little by killing Shae. Yeah, she betrayed and turned on him, and yeah, it was very personal- but she was just a low-level pawn, and he knew that. I'm conflicted as to whether his reaction was- uh- overkill.

    Dad, on the other hand... no ambivalence there. Sucka deserved what he got.


    I think so too. He's one of those people that I hate one moment and sort of like the next. But there are some things you just can't come back from, and pushing a seven-year-old out of a tower window is one of them. He'll never redeem himself in my eyes from that.
     
  18. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    I think the reaction was supposed to be viewed as overkill. It was a crime of passion brought on by a lifetime influence, stemming from the early period in Tyrion's life where his father used a whore against him.... Remember when he confided in Shae that he was tricked by his father, as a young man, into loving and marrying a whore?

    Shae's knowledge of that event made her betrayal worse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  19. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I find it hard to accept his "redemption" when so much of it is based on explaining the Kingslaying title, which has nothing to do with why in Game of Thrones we the readers come to hate him so much. He pushed Bran out of a window, and he ordered the deaths of Jory and the rest of Ned's men. He's talked a little about Bran, but we're just supposed to forget that he killed the others.

    Okay, he kinglsayed with purpose and is working on his anger management issues. He's still a hot-headed killer.
     
  20. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    I think that that particular slaying was actually *very* important, both in terms of his personal development and how readers and other characters view him.

    Oaths are very serious things to some people. He took a sacred oath to protect his king with his life, then betrayed oath, king *and* the Gods. Betraying an oath is in a sense betraying yourself (your integrity). Betraying your king can be viewed as betraying the entire country and everyone in it. betraying the Gods- many people think there is absolutely nothing worse you can do than that.

    One might think that the fact that the king in question was crazy and evil lets him off the hook... but I'm not sure it does, fully. I think some people will always view him with at least a little suspicion and contempt for breaking his sacred oath. I am convinced that he himself is one of those people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
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