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SPOILERS: GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire"

Discussion in 'Novels & Stories' started by Philip Overby, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    I remember all of that, and I really sympathize with Tyrion. He has had it bad; really really bad.

    Yet the fact remains that we all know- and Tyrion did too- who was really behind his climactic downfall. He was *mostly* p***ed at Cercei and Pops, and took it out on Shae (and Pops). Again, Shae was just a pawn. A cheap backbiting b****, certainly- she really kicked him while he was down- but I'm not sure the scope of her role in the machinations deserved her fate.

    I *love* Tyrion; seriously, I would have married the guy myself before he did that.... but that particular act made me recoil somewhat. Maybe I'm expecting too much of him to have expected him to handle that better... but I guess I did expect it. When I really like a character, I feel sorta personally betrayed when they fail to live up to what I expect of them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  2. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    She deserved it less than the father but more than, say, the harpist he ordered to be boiled in stew.
     
  3. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Agreed. Although with the blackmailing harpist, it was more about practicality- and trying to protect his love- than pure vengeance. (Does that make it better or worse?)
     
  4. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    Going back to Jaime, when he killed the Mad King, he was burning people alive. To not stop him would have been worse. But it goes back to that oath. I think Jaime has the heart of an honorable knight in some ways. Pushing Bran out the window was his way of defending his "lady love." He is a knight, but his morals are all out of whack. Maybe his current arc is leading him to something grander. I agree, it's hard to forgive someone who pushed a boy out a window. But to see him try to redeem himself might be worthy of reading.

    With Tyrion, the whole back story about his marriage to the prostitute and then Shae revealing she was "in on it" the same as his first wife, it was definitely a moment of uncontrolled rage. When he plugged Tywin I think it was calculated and clear-headed.
     
  5. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Yes. He understands loyalty and strives for it. He has been unquestioningly, completely loyal to Cersei. As I said before, he would have done anything for her, would have died for her without a thought. I think it's likely she ordered the killing of Eddard's men... or at the very least, Jaime knew her well enough to know it would be what she would want done. (Heck, he has never even slept with anyone but her, and you can bet every girl in that realm has been trying to get into his pants since he hit puberty.)

    He's sullied himself irredeemably in her service, and he knows it- yet always came back for more- and then she discarded him like garbage. He's been playing the part of the Golden Hero all his life, while feeling more and more like a fraud. His fascination with/hatred of Brienne is easy to understand. She's everything he has tried so hard to be, but is not.

    I dunno; I recall the Shae-killing scene as reading pretty cold. If he had dashed across the room and stabbed her in the heart the second he heard her voice, that would have been uncontrolled rage. If anything, he seemed somewhat numb by that time. In fact, when he heard her voice, I clearly recall him narrating something like, "That might have hurt, if I still had any feelings left."
     
  6. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    I think you're right about Tyrion. It's been a while since I've read the books, so my memory is a bit foggy. And yeah, Jaime is really more complicated than I thought he would be. Which has made for interesting reading.

    Something fun I found on the internet and could be worth a try is this: Can you name the POV Characters from the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' Series? | Online Games & Trivia by Sporcle

    I got a score of 49. It's really hard to remember all of the POV characters, honestly. Can anyone get higher? :)

    Also, do you think the increased number of POVs from each book is good for the series or a detriment?
     
  7. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Dang! You beat me. I only got 45. I remembered a couple more characters, but not enough of the full NAME (like, I tried "Sixskins" but it wouldn't take it because I couldn't remember "Varamyr"). I also wasted almost a full minute because I could not seem to spell Caitlyn closely enough for it to accept it.
     
  8. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    I actually forgot Sam, which was pretty dumb. :)

    I also had trouble thinking of people like Aerys Oakheart, Areo, and other really minor characters. I think I tried Sixskins and it worked for me.
     
  9. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I definitely felt that several could have been combined in the last two books. We didn't need three people from Dorne - the princess would have been enough.

    I scored 48, but only because I misspelled Victarian, typed Oakshield instead of Oakheart, and Kevin instead of Kevan.
     
  10. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    Increased POV's: It's been interesting to finally see what some of the characters we've followed from the beginning have been thinking/feeling. I was especially excited to see Barristan Selmy, because he's a big favorite of mine. It does feel like the POV's have been- SPRAWLING- a bit in the most recent two books, though.

    It's hard for George to do any wrong with this, though... he's got us all hooked right through the gills!
     
  11. kayd_mon

    kayd_mon Sage

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    I like most of the added POVs, especially Cersei. I was audibly excited when I first saw her POV come up, becauseI always wwanted to know what was going on in her head. Also, as we continue to follow Sansa, she keeps growing as a character. I can't wait to see what she does next.
     
  12. Philip Overby

    Philip Overby Staff Article Team

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    I too loved Cersei's POVs. I think that was a good addition. Someone like Crow's Eye (I think?) I'm not so sure about yet.

    Can someone give me a refresher course on Sansa? I can't seem to recall what she's been doing. Is she still in the Eyrie with Littlefinger?
     
  13. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    Littlefinger and Sansa left the Eyrie, but only to go to a different castle in the region for the winter. She's undercover, and he's giving her a lot of advice on how to manipulate the game. And he wants to wed her to "Harry the Heir," who is in line as successor to the Eyrie, claiming that when Sansa Stark shows off her Winterfell colors at the wedding, the entire region will rally around her and help her reclaim the North.
     
  14. kayd_mon

    kayd_mon Sage

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    To the best of my recollection, she's still with Littlefinger. Taking care of Robert Arryn helped her grow considerably, and she's still at it. I can't seem to remember the cliffhanger from her last chapter, but I remember really wanting to know what she ends up doing.

    I never got into most of the Ironborn chapters. They always seem like they're just pests along the way to the endgame. I don't see any of them, with the exception of maybe Theon, being very important in the grand scheme.

    Oh, did anyone else think that the whole arc with the Dornish prince and company (I seem to forget his name at the moment... was it Quentyn?), the ones who joined the Windblown sellswords... did anyone else think that was a relatively pointless arc? I mean, other than remind us that Dany's dragons are good at roasting things, it seemed a certainly doomed plan, and it went completely as expected.
     
  15. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    More likely she'll be killed immediately afterward, because that's how Martin rolls. :D The biggest of all spoilers, straight from the horse's mouth:

     
  16. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    He lies. I'm sure of it.


    Obviously if they have graves, someone had to be alive to bury them, right? Right . . . ? Right?!
     
  17. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    Perhaps the Others have a sensitive side? Or maybe there's only one survivor left to dig all the graves. He buries everyone, digs a grave himself, and then falls in it and dies from the exhaustion. :D
     
  18. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    I would never trust what that guy *says* he wants.

    He wants Sansa for himself.
     
  19. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    He may want both. I don't think it's that simple, though. Littlefinger loved Catelyn, so I think his feelings for Sansa are very mixed.
     
  20. Kit

    Kit Maester

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    He is devious enough that he'll have schemed out a way to have his cake and eat it too. Ain't NO WAY he's going to hand over a virgin Sansa to Harry or anyone else, that's for darn sure.
     
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