The "Earth" Problem in Fantasy

[Deleted member 4007]

See post #3 , this one is answered

Ok, so I am beginning to wonder how many similarities to Earth people take in their alternative fantasy worlds. This really is a question concerning accessibility versus uniqueness.

For my own series, I use many of the same biology. My world (Trecataur) has a history that also matches an iron-age + bronze-age etc. order. Also, all laws of physics remain the same.

One thing I had planned was for my world to have a 386-day year. This was simply to point out some slight astronomical differences between Earth and Trecataur.
For the audience to remember how the annual calendar works, I have the mnemonic: "33 for the months of Summer and Winter, 32 for Spring and Autumn, and 29 for November."

Do you think this is a good or bad idea? Since it serves little purpose but to state that this is not Earth, do you think it would be better for me just to use Earth's Gregorian?

 

[Queshire]

In your case I would just use the Gregorian calendar. I can't see those few extra days majorly affecting the plot, the character, and even really the world. If it's just some random tidbit for the readers to memorize... I'm not a fan.

As for the rest, I'm against uniqueness for the sake of uniqueness. What point does it serve? There's some allowance to be made if the author finds it fun, but all too often when an author stuffs their book full of every character's genealogical history, or pages and pages describing their oh so special Not!Elve's culture, it comes across as the author just patting themselves on the back. It's been said that really, any form of creative work is a conversation between the creator and the audience. The work says something even if that something is just "Hey! Isn't this cool?" In that case, authors that stuff their works full of meaningless facts and claim it to be part of "building an in depth, comprehensive world" are those guys who intentionally use really big words in order to make themselves seem smarter.

Ah, sorry if that seems a bit harsh. I'm really railing against some other fantasy books I've had the displeasure of reading over the years.

 

[Deleted member 4007]

No, thanks for that Queshire. I brought this up because I planned the 386-day calendar last year. Now looking back, it is really unnecessary.

I suppose things along these lines may get more complicated when it comes down to cultural things. For example, can you call it "Pythagoras' Theorem", or "Euler's Formula"? I know my book isn't going to go into maths like that, but still...

Has anyone encountered this problem?

 

[Devor]

I wouldn't use the Gregorian calendar, though. Hearing words like "November" and "July" can break immersion. I would just talk about the "first month of Spring" and not get any more specific than that.

 

[FifthView]

There was a Writing Excuses podcast in which GRRM's ASOIAF was discussed, and one of the participants mentioned that she always liked the fact that, although he doesn't say so explicitly, his world doesn't have a moon.

[Edit: Ugh. I just looked it up, and apparently, GRRM's world does have a moon. So, I might be thinking of some other world/series.

Edit #2: Or actually I was right. The participant in the podcast was wrong about GRRM's world.]

Now, it's been a couple years since I read any of those books; but, I could not remember ever picking up on that fact. Of course none of the characters would muse on the fact that they have no moon – because none of them has any experience of "moon." From what I recall, she pointed out how the nights are always very dark and no moonlight or moon is ever mentioned by the characters, whether referencing an actual physical body or in storytelling, metaphor, song.

But the things that made me think, "This is not Earth" were....well, White Walkers, dragons, very long seasons, the map/continents, etc.

I can imagine characters discussing the number of days in a month for your world, for example if some child is ever shown in the midst of a lesson, but if it's not a part of the plot and no characters would ever have a legitimate reason to discuss those things, then inserting them merely as an attempt to signal "not earth" might seem contrived.

There are multiple ways of showing the alien (not-Earth) characteristics of a planet, although astronomical differences can be tricky if you don't have, for instance, more than one moon or perhaps a moon or sun of a different color which characters would naturally notice. Ex.: "Maelin picked her way through the undergrowth with care. Yerto's pale purple light cast everything in sickly shadows, and Hebor had not yet risen." Perhaps if your world has astronomers or astrologers, pointing out differences directly (via their observations) could work if there's a reason to include something like that in your novel. Or, as with Earth, different rulers might have created new calendars at some point in the past, changing names for months and configurations, and some sort of mention of this would work.

 

[Pythagoras]

I suppose things along these lines may get more complicated when it comes down to cultural things. For example, can you call it "Pythagoras' Theorem", or "Euler's Formula"? I know my book isn't going to go into maths like that, but still...

Has anyone encountered this problem?

You called?

I don't think you should worry about stuff like that if physics and maths don't play into your story. I mean, it's fantasy. It's unrealistic by its very nature.

Of course, in your fantasy world, there might be similar physics, and it stands to reason that they'd have a different name than here on earth. But if you start worrying about that, your entire world will start to unravel. Why do your characters speak English?

It's been said many times before on this site, but I'll reiterate what I think is great advice: imagine that you, as the storyteller, are really just translating everything from another universe into a language that we, the readers here on earth, would understand. By that logic, why would a translator use a foreign name for a principle that we already have a name for? It may be jolting to a reader to see Pythagoras' theorem mentioned in a fantasy text. But it's probably going to be jolting to read an unheard-of name for the theorem, followed by a geometry lesson that ultimately just leads us back to something we already know. I suppose you just have to weigh your options against the context of the story.

...Or you could avoid physics and math altogether. Like I said, this is fantasy. Some of us are jolted just by the mention of a mathematical formula, no matter what name it goes by.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Up to you really. My question would be what use is changing the length of the year? It can serve several. The first, and the one you've said it doesn't do is affect the plot. So on that basis I wouldn't change it.

But it can do a couple of other things. Most important perhaps it can for a start take the story out of the medieval earth world view for a start making viewers think - this really isn't Earth. That can be useful if you want to increase the reader's unfamiliarity with the world.

Doing that in turn can make the reader more accepting of other oddnesses. Think Avatar - the movie - for example. Think of the floating mountains. Part of the reason they can be more easily accepted, even though it's sci fi and is supposed to have some sciencey rationale, is because it's not set on Earth. The viewer goes on seeing them - that's not possible. And then he goes - ahh but that's not Earth.

So that's your other potential advantage in changing the length of the year. It allows other more fantastical changes to be accepted.

But if you do it, you absolutely have to stay away from thing's like Pythagorus' theorum. You can't use recognised names that would instantly tell the reader he's back on Earth.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Deleted member 4007]

Ok guys, final question which has been really bugging me.
I understand that we as authors use "English" as a means of making it available to audiences on planet Earth. I appreciate that I should stick to a regular calendar, or even better, just say that each season has 3 months, and not go into any detail.

Here's the one problem with the English language thing and what I've seen:
Rhyming. Yes. Myself and others use rhymes in songs that exist in the books - is it really acceptable, when they are obviously not speaking our English?
E.g. look at the Rains of Castamere, or any of those. Personally, it seems fine, even better, to have rhymes. But does anyone else feel like suddenly the language has become English???

 

[Ireth]

I've never had a problem with it. I always chalk it up to Translation Convention and leave it at that. Occasionally I'll go so far as to lampshade the translation, as when an English-speaking character from Earth encounters people from another world who speak another language (whether that means the English-speaker has entered the other world, or vice-versa), and they hear the other speaking in each their own language, while noting that "the way your lips move don't match what you're saying."

 

[Miskatonic]

I'm using a lot of cultural elements from a specific time period. The 11th - 14th century to be exact. They are all based on the Europe of that time but there will be alterations to give some uniqueness to each. I'm sure anyone who is a stickler for historical accuracy will pick it apart but oh well. They are missing the point of a fantasy story.

 

[Miskatonic]

Consider this an edit or addendum to my above post.

Are you planning on keeping any specific historical timeline, creating specific holidays or days of observances? Is there anything unique about your world that would conflict with the Gregorian calendar?

 

[Miskatonic]

Ok guys, final question which has been really bugging me.
I understand that we as authors use "English" as a means of making it available to audiences on planet Earth. I appreciate that I should stick to a regular calendar, or even better, just say that each season has 3 months, and not go into any detail.

Here's the one problem with the English language thing and what I've seen:
Rhyming. Yes. Myself and others use rhymes in songs that exist in the books - is it really acceptable, when they are obviously not speaking our English?
E.g. look at the Rains of Castamere, or any of those. Personally, it seems fine, even better, to have rhymes. But does anyone else feel like suddenly the language has become English???

Are you looking at any possible alternatives, other than creating your own language (a massive undertaking)? I don't think the readers will be overly critical if you are using English. Just look at Tolkien's work, the songs and poems that are spoken/sung in the tales he wrote. I'd say the quality of the songs is more important.

 

[Gryphos]

Ok guys, final question which has been really bugging me.
I understand that we as authors use "English" as a means of making it available to audiences on planet Earth. I appreciate that I should stick to a regular calendar, or even better, just say that each season has 3 months, and not go into any detail.

Here's the one problem with the English language thing and what I've seen:
Rhyming. Yes. Myself and others use rhymes in songs that exist in the books - is it really acceptable, when they are obviously not speaking our English?
E.g. look at the Rains of Castamere, or any of those. Personally, it seems fine, even better, to have rhymes. But does anyone else feel like suddenly the language has become English???

I think in this case you just have to accept the discrepancy and go on the assumption that whatever words rhyme in English also happen to rhyme in whatever language the characters are speaking.

 

[Scribe Lord]

Ok guys, final question which has been really bugging me.
I understand that we as authors use "English" as a means of making it available to audiences on planet Earth. I appreciate that I should stick to a regular calendar, or even better, just say that each season has 3 months, and not go into any detail.

Here's the one problem with the English language thing and what I've seen:
Rhyming. Yes. Myself and others use rhymes in songs that exist in the books - is it really acceptable, when they are obviously not speaking our English?
E.g. look at the Rains of Castamere, or any of those. Personally, it seems fine, even better, to have rhymes. But does anyone else feel like suddenly the language has become English???

I have one thing to add here. I've read a few poems that were translated from a different language where the translator was still able to utilize a rhyming scheme.

Lastly, if you intend to eliminate english rhymes from your work for this reason, then you would also have to remove any puns or play on words that your characters make.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

There was a Writing Excuses podcast in which GRRM's ASOIAF was discussed, and one of the participants mentioned that she always liked the fact that, although he doesn't say so explicitly, his world doesn't have a moon.

I never realized that. I guess I just assumed there was a moon because of terms like "moon tea" and "moonsblood."

 

[Scribe Lord]

There actually is a moon in ASOIAF.

 

[FifthView]

As I included in my edits to that post: the person participating in the podcast made the comment, but she was wrong, apparently. If you click the link I provided, you can read the other comments about the moon, at that podcast.

 

[Queshire]

Back from a three day forced "hiatus." As far as rhyming goes, I'd say take a watsonian approach to it. If the song is written in the main language of wherever it is, in essence the English equivalent for that place, have it rhyme. People expect songs to rhyme, so keep it simple and go with that. If it's in a foreign language in character... well, have it rhyme in anyways. Realism is overrated, better to write a story with your audience in mind. For a lot of people, songs = rhyming. It's as simple as that.

Now, if it's in a foreign language in character then that is a great excuse to have it not rhyme if you want to do a song but aren't confident in your rhyming ability or song writing abilities. You can simply say it's much better in the original language =P

I am =really= against putting songs in stories to begin with, but that's another topic.

 

[Steerpike]

As people have noted, above, when poems are translated into English from other languages, the translator tries to capture the feel of the work by maintaining rhyming, cadence, and so on. They don't necessarily present a literal translation devoid of other considerations. So it makes sense that songs and/or poems in a fantasy work would maintain those elements as well.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

As I included in my edits to that post: the person participating in the podcast made the comment, but she was wrong, apparently. If you click the link I provided, you can read the other comments about the moon, at that podcast.

I think she misspoke. I believe she meant to say that there were two moons and one was destroyed, which would account for the wonky orbit and wacky seasons.