Maybe. Except that once everyone starts going that way, you can stand out by writing a traditional or "light" fantasy.
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The Epic and shades of grey
- Thread starter Chilari
- Start date
Maybe. Except that once everyone starts going that way, you can stand out by writing a traditional or "light" fantasy.
False. I think it's easier to stand out if you write good fiction. There are so many people writing awesome fantasy right now, there's no reason to say one style is superior to the other. There are good writers of dark fiction the same as there are good writers of good vs. evil fantasy, the same as there are bad in both camps. Good writing always rises to the top and is carried by word of mouth, not marketing or promoting a certain style. I'm not sure if you've read any of the authors I've quoted several times, but their writing is not for shock value. Maybe some people write dark fiction for shock value, but the writers who are doing good stuff right now just happen to fall into this camp of "dark" writers.
Zero Angel
Auror
Well, in the hypothetical it would be the same person writing the dark or light story, so I'd say the writing is equal. I have a large backlog of fantasy I need to work through, but when you read synopses, most of the events are pretty shocking in "dark" fiction.
Also, somehow we've progressed from talking about gray characters in epics to dark fantasy, not necessarily a 1-1 correspondence there.
Gray characters are often in darker stories though, so I think it's relevant to the discussion. I think maybe what sparked the OP was a recent reading of Mark Lawrence's "Prince of Thorns" (Chilari can correct me if I'm wrong). Mark Lawrence's writing and main character Jorg are pretty dark, probably the darkest out there right now, but Jorg may be considered gray in some circles, evil in others. I don't think anyone would interpret him as good. He's essentially going on a journey from what I understand of what I read so far. So I think most gray characters inhabit pretty dark worlds with probably more characters who hinge on the evil side than the good side.
Sheriff Woody
Troubadour
Speaking on the current trend, I think it's only a bad thing if *everyone* follows suit. When you have to go very far out of your way to find a new fantasy story that isn't "gritty" and "realistic", something is wrong.
I don't think you have to go far out of your way. There are still a lot of people writing what I would call traditional fantasy, in the sense that it's good vs. evil, epic in scale, lots of magic, etc.
Sheriff Woody
Troubadour
Yes, they are out there, but you have to do some digging to find them because mostly all current praise is for the current trend. It's kind of annoying.
Some recommendations if you don't want "too dark" writing:
Brandon Sanderson
Peter V. Brett
Guy Gavriel Kay
Patrick Rothfuss
Jim Butcher
Terry Pratchett
Scott Lynch
There are others of course, but these are some good ones. Some of these may have some dark themes, but they're not considered "dark and gritty" stories I don't think. There may even be some gray characters as well.
Brandon Sanderson
Peter V. Brett
Guy Gavriel Kay
Patrick Rothfuss
Jim Butcher
Terry Pratchett
Scott Lynch
There are others of course, but these are some good ones. Some of these may have some dark themes, but they're not considered "dark and gritty" stories I don't think. There may even be some gray characters as well.
Sheriff Woody
Troubadour
Thanks!
I know of all those writers, except Peter V. Brett. Not familiar with his work, but I'll check it out.
- Thread starter
- #70
Sort of yes, that did inspire the topic. I think Prince of Thorns has got elements of both - there's certainly a lot of darkness, and it's more about power than morality, but in terms of what Jorg wants to achieve, there are elements there of the epic. Prince out for revenge, coming up against sorcerers and necromancers and encountering strange beings and a seer and the undead in more than one guise. Perhaps that's one way to consolidate both the epic and the more shades of grey side of things; but I would not object to seeing more "traditional" fantasy races - eleves, dragons and so on - in tales which also have shades of grey. But that borders on your new topic so I'll expand there if I can find both time and the right words.
But at the same time, no, Prince of Thorns wasn't at the top of my thoughts when I decided to create this thread. I was thinking more of my own WIP and recent works, which follow very personal conflicts, often internal. I have crafted a world which in many ways resembles our own, albeit with some degree of the supernatural in existence. Perhaps because of the way I've built it, heavily inspired by the ancient Mediterranean world, it doesn't natutrally lend itself to the epic - there's no dark lord, no evil threat to civilisation. I suppose I could create one within the context of the world, there's scope for it; maybe it's just the way I see things - I've studied a great many wars from the Greco-Persian Wars and the Peloponnesian War to that which gave Rome control of mainland Greece, saw it defeat Carthage once and for all and heralded the beginning of the Empire, and there's always been at least two perspectives and I've never seen one where someone was entirely in the right and someone else was entirely in the wrong. As such I perhaps struggle with that side of the epic; thus I wanted to know if my own worldview and experiences are reconcilable with writing an epic, or at least something influenced by and incorporating elements from the epic.
Feo Takahari
Auror
Well, every epic war story I can think of that's set in the real world either involves fighting Nazis, or was written prior to The Red Badge of Courage (which dealt a blow to "glorious" war stories that the genre still hasn't recovered from.) If you want to write an epic and you don't want to involve fantasy Nazis, you'll need to:
1): not write about war,
2): not base it on the real world (e.g. humans vs. vampires),
or 3): bring back the old "glorious war" stories like The Four Feathers.
1): not write about war,
2): not base it on the real world (e.g. humans vs. vampires),
or 3): bring back the old "glorious war" stories like The Four Feathers.
Mindfire
Istar
The solution seems simple. Write about a group of mostly good protagonists facing a massive threat while also succumbing to their own weaknesses and temptations.
OR, write about a group of mostly good and heroic protagonists who have to take out an unmistakably evil antagonist. The catch? In order to get at the Dark Lord, they have plow through his minion army, which is composed of mostly decent people who are only serving due to coercion or a sense of loyalty. (Maybe the Dark Lord's father was a great guy and they want to honor his memory?)
OR, write about a group of mostly good and heroic protagonists who have to take out an unmistakably evil antagonist. The catch? In order to get at the Dark Lord, they have plow through his minion army, which is composed of mostly decent people who are only serving due to coercion or a sense of loyalty. (Maybe the Dark Lord's father was a great guy and they want to honor his memory?)
FatCat
Maester
Walking Dead sounds like a good example.
Feo Takahari
Auror
And for the latter suggestion, Winds of the Forelands involves a rebellion of magic-users, led by a would-be tyrant who really, really needs to be kept out of power. The catch is that magic-users are oppressed in this setting--those protagonists with magic are torn between loyalty to their fellows and hatred for the tyrant. (Then again, WotF isn't what I'd call epic fantasy.)
glutton
Inkling
I haven't read the whole thread, but don't think there's any reason a traditional epic quest would require the villain to be pure 'evil'. You can be truly wrong without being pure evil, I could definitely picture a great quest to take down a morally grey 'tyrant' mage who thinks he is just keeping order in the world, but uses cruel methods and is uber powerful.
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glutton
Inkling
Yeah, this is a little similar to how in my main series, the heroine kills thousands of men in war, but understands that most of them aren't actually 'evil' and are just soldiers fighting for their countries which makes her feel guilty about killing them.
And yes the 'thousands' part is no typo.
Nihal
Vala
^Exactly.
I really don't see why it can't be epic without relying on Good vs Evil. Fully evil characters seems kinda unrealistic, less interesting and immersive than a gray antagonist. Most "evil" people have reasons to commit seemingly cruel acts, they don't do it just because they're ooooh evil, but because they believe it's right. Either because the world needs it and just doesn't know, or because people wronged them and they "deserve" something in exchange... Many reasons, actually. You can learn a lot from watching real people going on their daily affairs.
I enjoy reading the classical Good vs Evil, that's not wrong with this format. Yet, I love gray tales too, they ring truer to my ears, engaging. And they can be definitively Epic.
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