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Tolkien's Elves

Weaver

Sage
Nah. It predates Jackson and shows up in video games and even in how they talk in some D&D or other gaming-related novels. Warcraft video games had it, back in the 90s (and those stemmed in part from Warhammer, which I think had it), and there's a Poul Anderson novel from the 1960s that has it as well. Some people have speculated that the idea of the scottish engineer-type ala "Scotty" from Star Trek is the root of it.

My hypothesis on the connection between Dwarves and Scottish accents: There's supposed to be a gene for 'engineering talent' and such (I'm not going to take sides on that) which is reputed to be more common amongst people of Scottish ancestry. Dwarves are generally supposed to have innate skill when it comes to making things (engineering), especially things made of metal. So the "logical" conclusion was that Dwarves would sound like Scots...

(The cliche of the Scottish engineer is far older than Scotty from Star Trek. Could have something to do with a Scot inventing the steam engine, my twin says.)
 

Mindfire

Istar
My hypothesis on the connection between Dwarves and Scottish accents: There's supposed to be a gene for 'engineering talent' and such (I'm not going to take sides on that) which is reputed to be more common amongst people of Scottish ancestry. Dwarves are generally supposed to have innate skill when it comes to making things (engineering), especially things made of metal. So the "logical" conclusion was that Dwarves would sound like Scots...

(The cliche of the Scottish engineer is far older than Scotty from Star Trek. Could have something to do with a Scot inventing the steam engine, my twin says.)

I read somewhere on this forum that the Greeks and Egyptians had knowledge of the steam engine.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Pertinent?

“Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it.” ~ C.S. Lewis (1898 — 1963)
 

Grimbold

Dreamer
I play alot, well, used to, play alot of Warhammer, so my dwarves/elves/goblins ect are more Warhammerish than anything else, minus the gunpowder and scottish accents...

Also, did the scotts had alot of dockyards as far as i remember? Like glasgow was famous for it i think (going only on Billy Connolly standup here though)
 
Hi,

I'm not sure that there's any mythological creature that hasn't been used of somewhere in a fantasy novel of some sort, so the chances of using one, be it elves or vampires, and not being compared to another work of fantasy, are small.

As for elves I'd say that the background mythology on them before Tolkein, and the number of different interpretations of them in various works and games, are so broad that it's hard to write them in a way that would ruffle too many feathers. I suppose if you made your elves somewhat brutish, poor archers much preferring a spiked club, and with a deep seated love of concrete cities, some might have their noses put slightly out of joint.

Vampires on the other hand, they've been through the wringer, and when Bram Stoker did her bit for the genre there was never a thought of them being teenage heartthrobs. That concept goes straight against the heart of what a vampire is supposed to be, which is essentially a monster. Sure maybe in the movies they had some sort of seductive allure against the ladies, but that was pretty much so they could get them close and rip their throats out. It wasn't so they could have a deep and meaningful romance with a teenage girl.

Excuse me - got to go now - feeling somewhat nauseas!!!

Cheers, Greg.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
Mindfire said:
I read somewhere on this forum that the Greeks and Egyptians had knowledge of the steam engine.

Off the top of my head, 1st century AD Alexandria, a steam engine was produced as a curio, a toy, but since the industrial means to make large engines in great numbers didn't exist it never got further than that. Alexandria being what it is, probably someone of both Greek and Egyptian ancestry living under Roman rule.
 

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
I have not extensively researched the validity of this notion, so take this with a grain of salt...but on studying the Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I discovered that many people would continually misspell 'dwarfs' in the title because Tolkein's spelling of 'dwarves' had become so popular. Now, perhaps the same can be said for 'elfs' and 'elves', as I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use the former spelling...but I don't honestly know. Just something to think about.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I have not extensively researched the validity of this notion, so take this with a grain of salt...but on studying the Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I discovered that many people would continually misspell 'dwarfs' in the title because Tolkein's spelling of 'dwarves' had become so popular. Now, perhaps the same can be said for 'elfs' and 'elves', as I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use the former spelling...but I don't honestly know. Just something to think about.

Also, "elfin" vs. "elven", another Tolkien-ism.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I'm not sure that usage originated with Tolkien. Just another thing he gets credited for as a foundation of the genre.
 

SeverinR

Vala
Here’s one that should strike up some decent debate — three questions.

1. Why do people think Tolkien invented Elves?
2. Why do people warn of copying Tolkien’s elves when they were in fact (aside from the genius language created by Tolkien) copies themselves?
3. Why is using elves different to using vampires, werewolves or any other mythological creature?


Discuss.
1; Tolkien needed a supporting race of beings, he prefered elves over the others.
2; No matter what you write about, make it yours. Don't try to make it like someone elses.

3: each race or creature has predetermined traits linked to lore or fables, if you change the lore, you make your beings special(sparkly vampires that can see sunlight without burning up). You still work with everyone's preconceived notions of a being, so we tend to pick the traditional races rather then make orcs the friendly noble people or outright make a new race.

Not sure how long sadistic Santa had his elven toy making slaves ;), but I believe Santa had elves when Tolkien wrote about his elves.
 

Shockley

Maester
First off, I love elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. Especially gnomes. I think they're wonderful, and I use them a bit (though I prefer some of my own creations). But there are a few misconceptions about the Nordic and Germanic myth which I am particularly qualified to tackle.

The elf in Germanic/Nordic mythology, first of all, was not tall, slender, pointy-eared, etc. Those are all modern additions to the original myth. In the traditional Germanic prayers, poems, etc. we find something unique about them: They are always listed with the gods, sometimes sandwiched between the As/Aesir/Os and the Wan/Van/Vanir. It seems, for all intents and purposes, that elves in the broadest sense were just another class of god.

This is amplified by the idea that Freyr, one of the Vanir, was the 'Lord of Alfheim (Lord of Elf-Home). Freyr was most certainly associated with this class of divines, and was seen as a more natural god than those of the Aesir. He was associated with rain, fertility, etc. So when we see 'Alfr' in the ancient sources, we're really reading something that should read like 'Nature Spirit.' Some of them are described as being able to walk through walls, turn invisible, etc.

We know that the Old Norse sacrificed to the Alfr.

The Dvergr, of which the modern dwarf concept is derived, were smiths and miners. But that was not really their nature - they evolved from the maggots who had been birthed in the flesh of Ymir, so they became miners/smiths because they already lived deep in the earth (which was Ymir's corpse). Tolkien just added a nicer spin to mythic figures that were often jealous, selfish, lusty and committed criminal acts from theft to rape on a regular basis.

The distinction between what was Dvergr and what was Alfr was not always clear. They express that there is a distinction, but plenty of the Dvergr mentioned in the myths have names that seem better suited for Alfr. For example, one of the dwarves listed in the Poetic Edda has the name 'Alfr.' Alberich (Alb being a more Germanic form of Alfr) of the Nibelungenlied is also a Dvergr.

That also brings us to the Dokkalfr, or 'Dark Elves.' These were 'bad' alfr who lived outside of Alfheim and in the earth. In essence, these are almost certainly the Dvergr of above. Throw in the Svartalfr (black elves) who are crafters (Svartalfr, not Dvergr, are the beings who craft the rope which holds Fenrisulfr), and you have an obvious idea pointing to Dvergr being lesser forms of Alfr, or just lesser gods.

So whenever we see an elf outside of that mold, we're seeing Tolkien's influences.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
I'm not sure that usage originated with Tolkien. Just another thing he gets credited for as a foundation of the genre.

No it didn't Lord Dunsany was one of the first to use elves in fantasy, before the genre was named, in The King of Elfland's Daughter.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
First off, I love elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. Especially gnomes. I think they're wonderful, and I use them a bit (though I prefer some of my own creations). But there are a few misconceptions about the Nordic and Germanic myth which I am particularly qualified to tackle.

The elf in Germanic/Nordic mythology, first of all, was not tall, slender, pointy-eared, etc. Those are all modern additions to the original myth. In the traditional Germanic prayers, poems, etc. we find something unique about them: They are always listed with the gods, sometimes sandwiched between the As/Aesir/Os and the Wan/Van/Vanir. It seems, for all intents and purposes, that elves in the broadest sense were just another class of god.

This is amplified by the idea that Freyr, one of the Vanir, was the 'Lord of Alfheim (Lord of Elf-Home). Freyr was most certainly associated with this class of divines, and was seen as a more natural god than those of the Aesir. He was associated with rain, fertility, etc. So when we see 'Alfr' in the ancient sources, we're really reading something that should read like 'Nature Spirit.' Some of them are described as being able to walk through walls, turn invisible, etc.

We know that the Old Norse sacrificed to the Alfr.

The Dvergr, of which the modern dwarf concept is derived, were smiths and miners. But that was not really their nature - they evolved from the maggots who had been birthed in the flesh of Ymir, so they became miners/smiths because they already lived deep in the earth (which was Ymir's corpse). Tolkien just added a nicer spin to mythic figures that were often jealous, selfish, lusty and committed criminal acts from theft to rape on a regular basis.

The distinction between what was Dvergr and what was Alfr was not always clear. They express that there is a distinction, but plenty of the Dvergr mentioned in the myths have names that seem better suited for Alfr. For example, one of the dwarves listed in the Poetic Edda has the name 'Alfr.' Alberich (Alb being a more Germanic form of Alfr) of the Nibelungenlied is also a Dvergr.

That also brings us to the Dokkalfr, or 'Dark Elves.' These were 'bad' alfr who lived outside of Alfheim and in the earth. In essence, these are almost certainly the Dvergr of above. Throw in the Svartalfr (black elves) who are crafters (Svartalfr, not Dvergr, are the beings who craft the rope which holds Fenrisulfr), and you have an obvious idea pointing to Dvergr being lesser forms of Alfr, or just lesser gods.

So whenever we see an elf outside of that mold, we're seeing Tolkien's influences.

Beg to differ, but the God Frey, Lord of the Light elves, was depicted as an a tall, strong warrior. The hero Volundr not only tall, but you can also see the pointy ears poking through his hair in some illustrations. These may not have been the original mythological descriptions, but the illustrations pre-date tolkien nonetheless.
 

Weaver

Sage
I have not extensively researched the validity of this notion, so take this with a grain of salt...but on studying the Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I discovered that many people would continually misspell 'dwarfs' in the title because Tolkein's spelling of 'dwarves' had become so popular. Now, perhaps the same can be said for 'elfs' and 'elves', as I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use the former spelling...but I don't honestly know. Just something to think about.

Tolkien himself, when asked if the correct form was "dwarfs" or "dwarves," said that actually, it's "dwarrow"... :)
 

Shockley

Maester
Beg to differ, but the God Frey, Lord of the Light elves, was depicted as an a tall, strong warrior.

What on earth does that have to do with anything that I said? Frey was a strong warrior, sure, but that has no bearing on how the alfar were worshiped by Germanic/Norse communities. Furthermore, while Frey was the lord of Alfheim, he most certainly was not Alfr - he was Vanir.

The hero Volundr not only tall, but you can also see the pointy ears poking through his hair in some illustrations.

Wayland was a normal man (though he developed a hero cult among the Anglo-Saxons, if memory serves me correctly. Wayland is an extremely common figure on Anglo-Saxon and Nordic art, and I've seen a lot of representations of him - never with pointy ears. Furthermore, knowing most Nordic/Anglo-Saxon art like the back of my hand, I'd be amazed if you could even make out ears on 90% of the stuff.


I assume you're using the height to dispute the idea that the dvergar and alfar were related. Do take note that, in your artistic depictions dating from that time, the dwarves are of indeterminate height. They have weird proportions, but the idea that they were short dates to a much later time.

Edit: I should be a little more blunt with what I am trying to convey: The idea that elves have pointy ears is not present in Germanic myth. The idea that dwarves are short is not present in Germanic myth. The idea that dvergar and alfar are separate creatures is, most likely, not present in Germanic myth. These are all later additions, much like how 'Drow' went on to have a very different meaning than 'Troll,' even though they are the same thing in the Orkish myths.

Additional Edit: I was looking for this earlier but had trouble finding it.

bv2428.jpg


This is a 12th century woodcarving depicting both Regin and Sigurd. Regin is a dvergr, Sigurd is a man. Notice that there is no discernible difference in their size. It could almost be argued that Regin (the figure on our left) is the larger of the two.

An additional point that could (and should) be made is that the Germanic people had no real problem shifting between describing a certain figure as a dvergr or as a jotun (giant). For example, Fafnir is described as both.
 
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WyrdMystic

Inkling
What on earth does that have to do with anything that I said? Frey was a strong warrior, sure, but that has no bearing on how the alfar were worshiped by Germanic/Norse communities. Furthermore, while Frey was the lord of Alfheim, he most certainly was not Alfr - he was Vanir.

Sorry - you are right, of course. It's the Victorians that gave them the pointy ears.

No I wasn't using height to that effect. I was using it to show that they were the tall figures as depicted by tolkien and that he did not change them. Creatures of physical prowess who have the choice whether or not to affect the course of humanity via divine intervention. He took the original form, gave them the pointy ears that the Victorians bestowed on them and now the concept is entirely his forever - not to detract from the language as that is pure genious. Others used them and there were additions to the myths between the original concepts and Tolkien that influenced Tolkiens elves.

If I was more learned then I'd be able to make a better argument, but my gyst is that Tolkien did not invent elves and anyone using them should not be considered as copying Tolkien.

If someone uses the elves as they were 'exactly' in mythology - they would still be seen as copying Tolkien. That's the media acclaim element that I find wrong.
 

Shockley

Maester
The Victorians didn't really intend to give the elves pointy ears, either. That was a trait they gave to fairies and the idea of those living in 'Fairy.' Tolkien's contribution was connecting the concept of fairies/Fairy with Elves. That's why you have a rather inconsistent use of that term and the concept in the Hobbit.

There's even debate as to whether or not the elves in Tolkien have pointy ears - he certainly never suggests that within the published work.

I wouldn't say the Norse/Anglo-Saxon/Germanic saw the alfar as a particularly real physical threat. There aren't a lot of alfar/dverger depicted directly in the body of myth, but those that are seem to be fairly pathetic/weak. The only major exception to that idea would probably be Fafnir, and he only becomes a real threat to anyone after he becomes a dragon.

He didn't invent them, not by any stretch of the imagination, but he certainly changed what it meant. Elf/Alf/Aelf was a fairly broad term until recent times, so it could cover a wide range of things. Someone mentioned Dunsansy's 'The King of Elfland's Daughter,' which is a wonderful example of that - the distinction between what Dunsany called an Elf and what we modern fantasists would call a wizard was rather blurry. Some of the early Arthurian myths refer to the Green Knight as being an elf (This is something carried over by the idea that Gawain uses a Pentagram for protection - that is its traditional folkloric role). In the Elf Knight, one of the primordial folk tales, the term 'elf' might very well be used to refer to the character as just being particularly eccentric.

If you use elves exactly as they are in the old myths, you're basically using nature spirits.

If you have a race of people, attuned to nature, with pointy ears, etc. you're pulling from Tolkien.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
Thanks for all the great stuff everyone. Ive learned a lot here. Im lead to believe that Tolkien referred to hobbit ears not being as pointy as an elf in a note to an illustrator.
 
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1. Ignorance.
2. Because Tolkien's elves are different in subtle but very important ways from folklore elves. Folklore elves are fair game, but when you start talking about how elves are always good, or how they can die of grief or use telepathy or come in three different clans with some complex racism at play between them, or that when they're killed they go to the Halls of Mandos and then come back again... all of these things are Tolkien's own ideas, and it would be plagiarism to copy them.
3. It isn't.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
elves are always good,

Not exactly. Even Tolkien's elves were capable of doing some pretty horrible things -- just look at Feanor, and the Doom of Mandos that fell on him and his family because of the Oath they took. They weren't irredeemable, since a few of them sincerely repented of some of the things they did (even though it didn't stop them from doing more evil things), but they definitely made the wrong choices, and 7/8 of those who took the Oath (Feanor and six of his seven sons) paid for it with their lives. The eighth wasn't killed, but he lost his entire family, and suffered from that and the burns the Silmarils gave him for the rest of his life. It's never stated when or if he died, but it's a fair guess that he probably wasted away from sheer grief. And besides that, in later ages there was the elf/dwarf racism in people like Celeborn and Thranduil, and even the wise and mighty Galadriel was subject to temptation from the Ring -- a lingering shred of her lust for power that drove her to follow Feanor and his family into exile in Middle-earth. That she passed the test and did not take the Ring is a testament to her character development since then, growing from a power-hungry and impulsive youth to the paragon of wisdom and beauty the Fellowship knew.
 
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