Underrated Cultures

[Steerpike]

Mindfire: true about the Ptolemaic line, which makes it somewhat humorous that you have some people who complain when Cleopatra isn't cast as a black actress. I do think either Native Americans or indigenous African cultures would make for a good fantasy.

 

[Steerpike]

I was wondering about that. So the term viking does only apply to the seaborne raider types? Not to any civilian population?

My understanding it that the term refers to the act, or as I've heard some people put it, a profession. So the "vikings" were the ones who went on raids. The Norse who did other things like stay home and farm were not vikings, by definition.

 

[grahamguitarman]

What accounts are you referring to? Almost everything we know is under one of two filters - that of the victims who wanted them to be horrible, or that of the post-Viking-age monks who wanted stories that stressed then-modern morality. We really don't know as much for sure as we'd like to think. Just a few of their written laws.

Well how about Ahmad ibn Rustah for example? he could be classed as a a fairly unbiased witness. There are probably others too but I can't be bothered to look them up.

Technically only those who went raiding were Viking, but it is still common for the term Viking to be used to describe anyone associated with them. For example the Vikings captured large tracts of my native county of Yorkshire, but the settlers who followed in their wake (including peaceful women and children) were stilled referred to as Viking settlers even though they never took part in the original raids.

The truth is that nothing is ever as black and white as some people think. Take the claim that Korea is just a fusion of Chinese and Japanese culture. Study Japanese history properly (looking beyond the samurai and ninjas) and you will find that early Japan took most of its cultural identity from China too, even its written language was largely based on Chinese calligraphy. Of course the Japanese blended this Chinese influence with their own native culture, then developed that blend into something entirely unique. But no-one accuses the Japanese of being a Chinese rip-off, the same applies to Korea, sure they were influenced by the Chinese (and ironically the Japanese) but they also had a unique culture of their own to bring to the blend.

I'm glad the Egyptian / Nubian thing came up as that is a pet peeve of mine too - you only need to look at early Egyptian painting and sculpture to see that the early Egyptians were African in appearance. Going by the paintings they appeared to be more of a brown colour than black, but they still had the large lips and slightly broader / flatter noses of the typically African face (as far as you can call any African face typical some had quite long and thin noses). The later Ptolemaic rulers were of course most likely of Greek extraction (Alexander didn't just have Greeks in his army) hence the perception of light skinned Egyptians.

You could look at any historical culture and chances are the reality is very different from the popular perception. But for fantasy purposes does it really matter? You are only using these cultures as a reference point for creating your own culture anyway.

 

[Mindfire]

But no-one accuses the Japanese of being a Chinese rip-off

The Chinese do. Lol

 

[Shockley]

Well, I guess this is the historian in me:

1. I'm not surprised that the Chinese and the Japanese have that concept of Korea. It was traded off between the two powers for years and years. A good portion of what we see as North Korea was part of the Chinese state as far back as the Han era. In fact, there was a powerful military clan during the Three Kingdoms era (the Gongsuns, and China's - not Korea's - Three Kingdom period) that, starting out from a place in what is now just north of North Korea, conquered almost the entirety of modern North Korea and a good portion of modern South Korea. Gongsun's activity occurred after most of the continent had been taken over by the Han, even.

So, looking at that and the substantial occupation periods by later powers, a good deal of Korean culture is probably derivative (as much as modern British culture is derived from Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Norwegians, Danes, Normans, etc.).

2. Whatever most of the ancient Egyptians were, they weren't black. They had a very clear concept of skin color (look, as above-mentioned, how they described the Kushites). They weren't white, either. They made a clear distinction between black dynasties (the twenty-fifth dynasty was certain led by Sub-Saharan Africans) and white dynasties (the Ptolemeys) and their own, native dynasties. Ramses the Great, just to use the ultimate example of what we would consider an 'Egyptian,' would have been of Semitic stock (ie, akin to an Israeli or an Arab).

 

[Jabrosky]

I'm with Mindfire on Egyptians being African, but I'm really damn tired of refuting the same assertions to the contrary over and over again, so I think we need to drop the topic here.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm with Mindfire on Egyptians being African, but I'm really damn tired of refuting the same assertions to the contrary over and over again, so I think we need to drop the topic here.

I think the evidence, genetic and contemporary, more strongly supports a Eurasian link, with the genetic distribution of Eurasian versus sub-Saharan African markers depending also on whether you are looking at upper or lower Egypt during that time period.

 

[Shockley]

Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.

 

[Mindfire]

Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.

What he means is that this little sidebar is starting to derail the topic and the argument might best be continued elsewhere. In a different thread perhaps.

 

[Jabrosky]

Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.

Mindfire did a good job providing supporting data in his original mini-rant. You and Steerpike are the ones making baseless assertions.

 

[Mindfire]

Mindfire did a good job providing supporting data in his original mini-rant. You and Steerpike are the ones making baseless assertions.

Ahem. Let's not get hostile, please. And let's also not derail the topic anymore. Perhaps you could take this to a different thread?

 

[grahamguitarman]

The Chinese do. Lol

Yeah I guess they would, I was thinking more in the western mind LOL

 

[Shockley]

If you guys would like, I'm willing to take this to Chit-Chat or somewhere.

 

[Steerpike]

What he means is that this little sidebar is starting to derail the topic and the argument might best be continued elsewhere. In a different thread perhaps.

That's probably a good idea. A new thread on the topic would be interesting. Jabrosky can avoid it that way as well, as he's clearly getting a little too defensive about a topic he hasn't researched well. We shouldn't be derailing his thread on it. It is an interesting one, as are all topics about ancient cultures. If others are interested in continuing it in a new thread, I would be as well. It is also interesting to see how conflicts arise between scientific disciplines in these areas - up until fairly recently you didn't get much study that was more broad in terms of discipline.

*Actually a thread in research would be good. I'm interested in what others have found on the issue

 

[Jabrosky]

That's probably a good idea. A new thread on the topic would be interesting. Jabrosky can avoid it that way as well, as he's clearly getting a little too defensive about a topic he hasn't researched well.

If you honestly think I have not spend nearly a whole decade looking into this specific subject and arguing with your ilk, you cannot imagine how wrong you are. If anything, it's precisely because I am weary of trying to educate obtuse ignoramuses and refuting the same misconceptions over and over again that I am reluctant to debate this topic for the hundredth time. It's comparable in productivity to conversing about evolutionary biology and geology with creationists.

But yes, a separate thread in either Chit-Chat or Research would work well.

 

[Ivan]

Yeah I guess they would, I was thinking more in the western mind LOL

As late as the 1880's, China claimed Korea as a vassal, which was very confusing to westerners because there was no evidence of any kind to that effect.

EDIT: Jabrosky, whatever your past experiences, it doesn't make you or your argument look any better when you continually distract from the purpose of the thread to talk about your pet research, lump together and insult people who disagree with you, and then agree to talk about it elsewhere AFTER you've got your shot in. If you would calm down and discuss it within the norms and bounds of scholarly debate, you might find a more receptive audience.

 

[Mindfire]

If you honestly think I have not spend nearly a whole decade looking into this specific subject and arguing with your ilk, you cannot imagine how wrong you are. If anything, it's precisely because I am weary of trying to educate obtuse ignoramuses and refuting the same misconceptions over and over again that I am reluctant to debate this topic for the hundredth time. It's comparable in productivity to conversing about evolutionary biology and geology with creationists.

But yes, a separate thread in either Chit-Chat or Research would work well.

In any argument it's always best to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Assume that he is well-informed and competent. That way, you'll never be caught off guard. If you assume that your opposition is ignorant and allow that assumption to color your argument, you will only undermine your own position, regardless of how correct you are.

That said, yes. A thread in Chit-Chat or Research is EXACTLY what needs to happen.

 

[Queshire]

so why don't one of you two go do that instead of passively agressively attacking each other while saying it should happen.

 

[Mindfire]

so why don't one of you two go do that instead of passively agressively attacking each other while saying it should happen.

I assumed someone more emotionally invested in the topic would make it. But since no one seems to be doing that...

Aha! I stand corrected. All further discourse on the topic should be taken here:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/3071-ancient-egyptians-cultural-origin-genetics-etc.html

 

[Jabrosky]

I apologize if I sounded inappropriately confrontational in my earlier posts.

Anyway, the thread has already been created here.