Using elves as a substitute for humans (no humans fantasy)

[Mythopoet]

The magic humans believed they could do were things like making the crops come the next season, aka things that could have happened anyway.

You're wrong, but it literally doesn't matter what they believed they were doing. The point is that humans have always believed that humans could be involved in and/or perform magic. Magic is not something limited to supernatural races in the human imagination.

 

[Malik]

The magic humans believed they could do were things like making the crops come the next season, aka things that could have happened anyway.

So . . . parting the Red Sea, walking on water? Penn and Teller? Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that a lot of humans believe that other humans could pull off some pretty amazing stuff. Spells on papyrus dating back to Ancient Greece and even Egypt survive today.

An Egyptian (edit: Coptic) spell to gain a magical singing voice, 6-7th Century AD. Go kill 'em at karaoke.​

The old Norse word for "magic" (fjölkyngi) is derived from the word for "knowledge" (kunni). The very people the OP is referring to for his worldbuilding believed that magic was just a part of the everyday world that they didn't understand. They believed that anyone could work magic if they just learned enough about the world and its goings-on. I'm pretty sure that very little of what they saw as magic fell under the auspices of "things that could have happened anyway."

Whether it's the loaves and the fishes or pulling a rabbit out of a hat, "something that could have happened anyway" is almost exactly the definition of what magic is not.

 

[skip.knox]

Also, the clear divide between what is "real" and what is supernatural is rather a modern one. I definitely use that in my world-building. There is little sense of an objective reality existing external to perception. People for the most part deal with what they themselves have seen, and what they have heard from others--producing facts on a sliding scale, depending on how the individual regards the source of the report. It's way more fun than trying to make up absolute rules.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I must say that I am determined not to include both humans and elves, its either humans or elves and I opted for elves instead.

The only difference between my elves and humans in real life is that elves can be magicians (can have magical powers), while humans in real life can not use magic.
It is important to have in mind that magic in my world is not restricted to elves and that all "races" have the ability to use magic.

Instead of pointy-eared and long-haired, I like the version they were described in Norse myths and saga, DESPITE POPULAR MENTAL IMAGE, In the Norse myths and sagas, elves were physically described to look just like humans, they did not have pointy ears and they could grow a beard just like humans (although elves were usually more beautiful than men).

My elves are not divine nor mystical and they are not immortal, as said the only difference between humans in real life and my elves is the ABILITY TO USE MAGIC.

I must say that I am determined not to include both humans and elves, its either humans or elves and I opted for elves instead. I do not want two races that look the same (please don't bore me with examples of how elves can be different, that's your type of elves you like, I only like elves described in Norse sagas.).

My elves are not divided into dark elves, high elves, wood elves..., nor do they have pointy ears.

They can have castles and cities too like humans did in real life, my elf can be a ugly peasant, a gray-haired blacksmith, a black-skinned warrior from the far south or a monk with a long beard.

Using elves as a substitute for humans I want to emphasize that this is a fictional world (not our Earth), its also easier for the reader to believe that elves can use magic rather than a human, SCENARIO 1: He is a human, I wonder where do his magical abilities come from? Is it inherent/studied or else? SCENARIO 2: He is an elf, therefore I do not need to infodump explanations where does his magic come from.

Questions:

What do you think about making elves immortal, do you think its necessary to make them immortal (living for thousands of years)?

Do you think its necessary that they have long lives, if they are not immortal?

What do you think about my elves?

If they're identical to humans other than the ability to use magic there is no reason to call them elves.

Plenty of books have magic using humans. In one of my WIP's all humans can use magic.

There's just no point.

 

[Annoyingkid]

So . . . parting the Red Sea, walking on water? Penn and Teller? Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that a lot of humans believe that other humans could pull off some pretty amazing stuff. Spells on papyrus dating back to Ancient Greece and even Egypt survive today.

Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.

Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.

 

[Mythopoet]

Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.

Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.

Dude, it's fine if that's the way you want to see things. but don't tell other people they have to limit their imagination based on your worldview. k?

 

[Annoyingkid]

Dude, it's fine if that's the way you want to see things. but don't tell other people they have to limit their imagination based on your worldview. k?

No. You can't say rubbish like your humans have two hearts and five legs and can fly because it's fantasy and still call them human,because we know what a human is.

 

[Holman]

Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners.

Depends on your world view - a circle is just one big corner that gets you back to where you started.

 

[TheKillerBs]

No. You can't say rubbish like your humans have two hearts and five legs and can fly because it's fantasy and still call them human,because we know what a human is.

The difference is that hearts and legs exist and magic doesn't. Also magic can be something that is used, not an inherent property of a person and we can't use it simply because it doesn't exist. There is no such thing as magic. Just like there is no such thing as dragons. Can humans eat dragons? Of course not, because dragons don't exist. But if they did, to say that eating dragons makes you not a human is pretty insulting actually.

 

[TheKillerBs]

Depends on your world view - a circle is just one big corner that gets you back to where you started.

The correct mathematical description would be that it's a polygon with infinite corners.

 

[Steerpike]

In a world where magic exists as a tool to be drawn on, then there is no reason humans can't use it. It is a tool of the world around them. Saying they're no longer human is equivalent to saying, 5,000 years ago, that a human using a hammer isn't human anymore, because no humans in the real world used hammers at that time.

Putting a human into a world where there are hammers, guns, spaceships, or lasers, doesn't make her non-human as a result of her use of these tools. Likewise, neither does use of magic that exists as a tool available for use in a fantasy world.

If you focus solely on innate powers of some kind, rather than magic drawn from the world and used as a tool, then you can get to a point where arguably the person is something other than "human." But even then I think you have to go a fair way down that road. I wouldn't argue that Christopher Walken's character in Dead Zone is non-human because he has some innate ability for prescient dreams.

 

[Steerpike]

Following up on the Dead Zone comment, I think it is important to consider the parameters the author has set for the world. In The Dead Zone, Stephen King clearly posits the existence of human beings that have clairvoyance. He could have cast the character as non-human, superhuman, or what have you, but he didn't. The character is simply a human with an ability that some people think occurs in people from time to time.

 

[Vadosity]

The fact is that in Fantasy there is a long and well-used tradition of letting humans have powers through genetics, bonding to a magical beast or gaining magical abilities through training and spells. Arguing that this is wrong at this point in the game is like saying that all Fantasy authors should never have any magical races in their works because there never really existed.

Whether or not RL humans are magical is beside the point, this is Fantasy! In Fantasy all you need to worry about is making sure that your worldbuilding is consistent and fits your story arc. Otherwise, you can go ahead and have flying people or pink elves. Maybe both! It's all good!

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

The difference is that hearts and legs exist and magic doesn't. ...

That may be your belief, but I can tell you that not all humans on Earth agree with your statement. Humans are a varied lot, and for a person to strap humanity with only his beliefs is to strap blinders on himself.

 

[Annoyingkid]

In a world where magic exists as a tool to be drawn on, then there is no reason humans can't use it. It is a tool of the world around them. Saying they're no longer human is equivalent to saying, 5,000 years ago, that a human using a hammer isn't human anymore, because no humans in the real world used hammers at that time.

Putting a human into a world where there are hammers, guns, spaceships, or lasers, doesn't make her non-human as a result of her use of these tools. Likewise, neither does use of magic that exists as a tool available for use in a fantasy world.

If you focus solely on innate powers of some kind, rather than magic drawn from the world and used as a tool, then you can get to a point where arguably the person is something other than "human." But even then I think you have to go a fair way down that road. I wouldn't argue that Christopher Walken's character in Dead Zone is non-human because he has some innate ability for prescient dreams.

Making and using a hammer doesn't change the fundamentals of the human condition.

The classification of species isn't what matters, it's the fact that human behaviour, humanity itself, is built on our limitations, vulnerabilities, uncertainties, fears, hopes and dreams etc within this mere flesh and bone body that can't do magic.

No matter how far technology has advanced, many of us are still have the same instincts our caveman ancestors did.

When you change the power scale, and give humans magic, the "human condition" of these people is no longer inherenetly anymore human than the elven condition. It's lost it's inherent humanity.

So the argument, "if you make elves human like, you may as well just use humans" becomes incoherent. Because it now makes no difference which one you use. The audience won't relate to either one any better than the other.

 

[Steerpike]

Making and using a hammer doesn't change the fundamentals of the human condition.

Nor does using magic (at least not necessarily) in a world where magic is established as something that can be drawn upon as a tool. It's all down to how the writers sets up his world and the extent to which the magic is employed. Humans have a long history of supposing that certain people had access to magical abilities without considering them non-human.

 

[Annoyingkid]

Nor does using magic (at least not necessarily) in a world where magic is established as something that can be drawn upon as a tool. It's all down to how the writers sets up his world and the extent to which the magic is employed. Humans have a long history of supposing that certain people had access to magical abilities without considering them non-human.

That's because they always considered the witch or elder or whatever as a mere conduit or avatar of a supernatural source of these abilities. Chosen by demons or a deity or spirits. No one believed humans could do magic and the magic just came from the human.

I would also argue that as soon as you give humans a spark of magic, that does fundamentally change the human condition. Because once you open the floodgates that's it. There's no way to convince the audience that's it, that's all the magic they get and no more. Hell there's no way to convince the humans in the actual story of that. So it's basically the same as a fantasy race. The ONLY difference inherently between choosing an elf or a human is that with a human the audience knows these are the tools the humans have, they don't get no transformation, no spritual power, no plot convenient rage power boosts or super strength, no legolas moves, none of that. The audience is essentially transported into the story and is encouraged to wonder how to solve the story with just the tools we have. An elf now, as a fantasy race, is basically open ended. There are no hard limits.

Would it shock anyone if Legolas shot a lightning arrow? Wouldn't shock me. If Boromir did it, I'd be like What the f***! But if you remove the hard limits from the human, and previously had Boromir doing those Mario jumps like Legolas, if he then shot a magical lightning arrow, I won't have the same reaction, as the hard limitations are already broken. Therefore I can no longer say these people can solve the stories with abilities that I either have or could develop in the real world. And if you could no longer say that, then whether you use elves or humans becomes inconsequential. The inherent difference is gone.

 

[Mythopoet]

Would it shock anyone if Legolas shot a lightning arrow? Wouldn't shock me.

It should. That's not how Elven "magic" works. Especially for a Sindarin Elf.

It's not about Elves vs. Humans. It's about the nature of Elves and Humans within a specific world and how that world works.

 

[Steerpike]

That's because they always considered the witch or elder or whatever as a mere conduit or avatar of a supernatural source of these abilities. Chosen by demons or a deity or spirits. No one believed humans could do magic and the magic just came from the human.

Yes, and in my posts I said magic was available to to humans to be used as a tool. Same thing. They're a conduit for it, whether you posit gods, demons, some inherent property of the physical world, or what have you.

 

[X Equestris]

Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.

Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.

In Judeo-Christian thought, magic is an act of higher powers. Demons and the like, for example. Miracles function the same way, except God is the source. Point is, people are conduits. Basically theurgy:

Theurgy - Wikipedia

If one's definition of magic were broader than the Judeo-Christian one, you could even term prayer an act of theurgy.

Humans also only live on Earth as far as we know, yet I don't see many people who have a problem with them on secondary worlds. There's a little thing called suspension of disbelief, and it's a big part of speculative fiction.