Voice? How and how much?

[Scribble]

Here's the thing, though: if you see an apprentice carpenter screwing up, how do you help him? The only think I can think of is to try to explain to him how to use the tools. Seems to me like that's better than telling him, "Sorry, you have to figure it out on your own."

I like this analogy.

There are good carpenters and there are bad carpenters. Not all good carpenters do things the same way, but there is some commonality. Two good carpenters might argue about how best to build a house, but each will build a solid house in their own way, using the tools they've learned.

I'm a very inexperienced carpenter. My dad was not very handy, he taught me how to make enough money to pay someone to fix your house for me. I'm a little more handy than that, but I acknowledge my inexperience, so, my brother in law helps me with home repairs. He bought this oscillating saw, amazing for doing small precision cuts! I would have used the reciprocating saw, which is good for rough cutting. He's got a ton of little techniques that make the work go well, the end result looks good. He's finished his own bathroom and done a lot of that kind of work.

I do the same thing when a new programmer is trying to write software. I show them "the ropes", how not to write shoddy software. Other software developers may disagree with my exact methods, but if they've also been at it for 20 years, we'll agree on *some* things, at the very least that one should follow *some* methods and guidelines. The problem with the young guys is they don't yet know which rules should be broken and when, so it is safer just to tell them to follow "the rules" knowing that you don't have all the answers. But, you have some answers, and they work well enough.

When people come into a craft, there are varying degrees of skill people have learned, varying degrees of awareness of the complexity of details that will need to be learned. Some people can figure out much of this on their own, just by watching other carpenters. Some people need to be told that the nails with the heads on the wrong end aren't for the other side of the house, you can actually turn them around. Some people can only learn by building shoddy houses and then having an expert point out the weaknesses.

 

[BWFoster78]

Some people need to be told that the nails with the heads on the wrong end aren't for the other side of the house,

I laughed so hard at this!

 

[Steerpike]

These analogies work great the more that carpentry is like fiction writing. If you view fiction writing in that way, then I can see having the approach that you take. I don't think it is much like carpentry, personally, and I don't think you're doing writers any favors by telling them, even when starting out, that there's one approach they need to follow. On the other hand, when teaching science or, presumably, carpentry, you might very well start in such a manner.

 

[BWFoster78]

These analogies work great the more that carpentry is like fiction writing. If you view fiction writing in that way, then I can see having the approach that you take. I don't think it is much like carpentry, personally, and I don't think you're doing writers any favors by telling them, even when starting out, that there's one approach they need to follow. On the other hand, when teaching science or, presumably, carpentry, you might very well start in such a manner.

What do you feel is the best way to help new writers?

 

[Scribble]

These analogies work great the more that carpentry is like fiction writing. If you view fiction writing in that way, then I can see having the approach that you take. I don't think it is much like carpentry, personally, and I don't think you're doing writers any favors by telling them, even when starting out, that there's one approach they need to follow. On the other hand, when teaching science or, presumably, carpentry, you might very well start in such a manner.

I appreciate the sentiment of what you are saying, but what do you do? Hold back the knowledge of what has worked for you? Is it helpful to tell them to just go ahead and throw words at a page and see if any of them stick, that nobody possesses any wisdom about how to do these things, just make it up as you go?

I don't want to see anyone's creativity crimped, but if you go seeking the company of writers... it is just a natural human behavior that questions will be asked and "wisdom" will be passed. We can stretch our brains to find any number of analogies to fit everyone's conception of writing, but we'll get back to the same thing:

New guy: I suck, how do I do this?
Old guy: Here's what works for me...

 

[Steerpike]

I appreciate the sentiment of what you are saying, but what do you do? Hold back the knowledge of what has worked for you? Is it helpful to tell them to just go ahead and throw words at a page and see if any of them stick, that nobody possesses any wisdom about how to do these things, just make it up as you go?

I don't want to see anyone's creativity crimped, but if you go seeking the company of writers... it is just a natural human behavior that questions will be asked and "wisdom" will be passed. We can stretch our brains to find any number of analogies to fit everyone's conception of writing, but we'll get back to the same thing:

New guy: I suck, how do I do this?
Old guy: Here's what works for me...

Yeah, I think "here's what works for me" is exactly what you do, and then you make sure the beginner understands that what you're giving them are tools that they may or may not want to use (and if they use them, may want to use differently from you), depending on their own goal, the style of writing they want to engage in, and so on. You don't go to someone who is already unsure or self-conscious about their craft and tell them "Here's what you have to do, otherwise you're doing it wrong."

 

[Steerpike]

What do you feel is the best way to help new writers?

By telling them the truth. Which consists of knowledge of all of the tools available to them, as well as the knowledge that they should trust their instincts and be true to the story they want to tell, which may involve throwing any of the tools you just offered right out the window.

 

[Scribble]

"Here's what you have to do, otherwise you're doing it wrong."

Got it.

I've learned to distrust certainty and avoid people with arrogant attitudes. It is, however, easy to misunderstand passion for arrogance, particularly in web space where we don't have the physical cues telling us that the person doesn't take themselves too seriously, while taking their work very seriously.

The good teacher makes it about the student, putting their best knowledge forward - allowing for the fact they may be wrong, the poor teacher makes it about their own self and how great they are at what they do.

 

[BWFoster78]

By telling them the truth. Which consists of knowledge of all of the tools available to them, as well as the knowledge that they should trust their instincts and be true to the story they want to tell, which may involve throwing any of the tools you just offered right out the window.

How do you possibly convey knowledge of all the tools available? It's apparent when you look at a total beginner that they have no clue. Even giving them simple information like, "This is boring because it lacks tension" and "You really need to show here because the telling just isn't working" is going to overwhelm them. Do you really think saying, "Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, any one of 10,366,729,152.12 techniques might work. Wait a second while I elaborate on each of them and include all the advantages and disadvantages of each."

Sometimes, you just need to tell the guy, "Dude, this is boring. Ramp up the tension. Here's how you do that:"

I get the impression you want me to tell them, "Well, while this is too boring for my taste, some writers have achieved engagement by adding tension. You add tension this way: If you don't like that method, perhaps explore the techniques found link and link. Of course, some readers might interpret that this way, so maybe it would be better if you ____. On the other hand,..."

How does that help anyone? And, how would I have time to do anything other than make a single comment?

 

[Steerpike]

The good teacher makes it about the student, putting their best knowledge forward - allowing for the fact they may be wrong, the poor teacher makes it about their own self and how great they are at what they do.

Yes. And keep in mind, too, that in fiction writing there really isn't a "wrong," there is only what is effective and what isn't, and that determination is highly subjective.

 

[Steerpike]

How do you possibly convey knowledge of all the tools available? It's apparent when you look at a total beginner that they have no clue. Even giving them simple information like, "This is boring because it lacks tension" and "You really need to show here because the telling just isn't working" is going to overwhelm them. Do you really think saying, "Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, any one of 10,366,729,152.12 techniques might work. Wait a second while I elaborate on each of them and include all the advantages and disadvantages of each."

Sometimes, you just need to tell the guy, "Dude, this is boring. Ramp up the tension. Here's how you do that:"

I get the impression you want me to tell them, "Well, while this is too boring for my taste, some writers have achieved engagement by adding tension. You add tension this way: If you don't like that method, perhaps explore the techniques found link and link. Of course, some readers might interpret that this way, so maybe it would be better if you ____. On the other hand,..."

How does that help anyone? And, how would I have time to do anything other than make a single comment?

I think there are ways we can all help new writers without stifling their own style and creativity (and without engaging in the hyperbolic scenario you've illustrated above). I get that you want, for whatever reason, for there to be one way to write properly and for it to be the way you've deemed correct. We'll just have to disagree on that point. I think your advice is good for the type of work you're aiming for, but not everyone aims for the same thing (nor should they). If you present a certain style or approach as universal, you're doing more harm than good to a new writer who is still figuring out the personal aspects of their own writing.

 

[Scribble]

How do you possibly convey knowledge of all the tools available? It's apparent when you look at a total beginner that they have no clue. Even giving them simple information like, "This is boring because it lacks tension" and "You really need to show here because the telling just isn't working" is going to overwhelm them. Do you really think saying, "Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, any one of 10,366,729,152.12 techniques might work. Wait a second while I elaborate on each of them and include all the advantages and disadvantages of each."

Sometimes, you just need to tell the guy, "Dude, this is boring. Ramp up the tension. Here's how you do that:"

I get the impression you want me to tell them, "Well, while this is too boring for my taste, some writers have achieved engagement by adding tension. You add tension this way: If you don't like that method, perhaps explore the techniques found link and link. Of course, some readers might interpret that this way, so maybe it would be better if you ____. On the other hand,..."

How does that help anyone? And, how would I have time to do anything other than make a single comment?

I've spent years writing opinion pieces and every single time I do, I am aware that I also support the opposite argument - to a degree. You can't footnote every single thing you say with caveats and disclaimers. You have to hold an opinion and shove it out there. Some people will get that, some people will nitpick and think you are being an absolutist. If you are going to say something, just say it, and like the parable of the farmer - some seeds will land on fertile soil, some seeds will fall in the dust.

 

[Steerpike]

I've spent years writing opinion pieces and every single time I do, I am aware that I also support the opposite argument - to a degree. You can't footnote every single thing you say with caveats and disclaimers. You have to hold an opinion and shove it out there. Some people will get that, some people will nitpick and think you are being an absolutist. If you are going to say something, just say it, and like the parable of the farmer - some seeds will land on fertile soil, some seeds will fall in the dust.

Which is all well and good, but if someone comments and does take an opposing viewpoint, it doesn't make sense to get irritated by it, does it? The good thing about a discussion forum is the diversity of views. So if we all have different approaches to things, then those approaches are discussed and advocated for by their respective parties, and in the end there is a diversity of information presented. Win-win.

 

[Ankari]

How does that help anyone? And, how would I have time to do anything other than make a single comment?

This is the crux of the problem. There are two ways of dispensing advice. The first is to only give feedback on what you've accepted to be true. This ishelpful to the person confident in his writing skills, can process such feedback and separate what works for his style and what doesn't. This kind of advise will damage raw writers, or writers lacking confidence in themselves. The result would be a confusion of his unformed voice, and the partially formed voice of another.

The second option is to understand what the novice writer is trying to accomplish. This will force you to accept techniques you may not be comfortable with, but must acknowledge as his right of expression. Once you accept this, advise within his parameters.

The best question one can ask before dispensing such advice is "what are you trying to do?".

 

[Feo Takahari]

An example of a comment I left on the story I'm beta reading:

"Before" is usually used when you're breaking the order of events, talking about something that happened prior to the events you're talking about. Even though this is past tense, you go through the events in order, so "next," "then," and other terms like that help present the idea that they're in order.

Am I stifling this author's creativity, preventing him from beforing as he wishes? Or am I giving him valuable advice on sentence construction? How am I supposed to tell? But I think the story's getting better, and I want to help with that.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

This is one of those debates where I think both side have merit. It's seems relatively easy to simply tell someone who is seeking advice:

This is my opinion. You might find some tips valuable, some will not work for what you're trying to accomplish.

That's a mouthful of disclaimer though every time you dole out advice or suggestions.

Can't one simply say "This is only my opinion"?

To assume the person receiving critique doesn't understand the implication, is insulting to their intelligence.

 

[GeekDavid]

This is one of those debates where I think both side have merit. It's seems relatively easy to simply tell someone who is seeking advice:

This is my opinion. You might find some tips valuable, some will not work for what you're trying to accomplish.

That's a mouthful of disclaimer though every time you dole out advice or suggestions.

Can't one simply say "This is only my opinion"?

To assume the person receiving critique doesn't understand the implication, is insulting to their intelligence.

Exactly!

If you say, "this works for me, but might not for you," you're leaving the door open to them deciding not to follow the advice.

If, on the other hand, you say "this is the right way to do it," you're acting like what works for you must work for someone else... which isn't always true.

Edited to add: Please note, I practice what I preach.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Approaching critique in a suggestive manner is something that I've learned here, at Mythic Scribes. I'm not perfect by any means, and my responses are somewhat time sensitive when talking about a Showcase excerpt.

GeekDavid,
If you look at my critique of your Heretic's Challenge, you'll notice the language used includes a lot of "I suggest...", "You could...", "Wouldn't you think...", & "In my opinion..." statements. Does this effectively deliver the points while allowing for your freedom as an artist to choose? I'm just curious because I think being a good critique partner is a learned skill. People that give critique can grow when the writer gives them feedback. It works both ways & I've found that the best crit partners are those who've taken the time to understand one another. At the start though, it's a guessing game.

A personal example:
If you look way back when (guessing almost 2 years ago), I did a crit for Caged Maiden on a Showcase piece. Admittedly, the crit was forceful, basic, & quoting a lot of rules (those I adopted). I didn't really attempt to understand the piece, or her. Rather, I gave out advice stating "change this, cut this, and so on." Well, over the years she's become a crit partner I highly value. We understand each other's style and goals. When I do a crit for her it's far different than most I'd do on the showcase. There's much more attention to detail. I feel I have a grasp on what she needs, from me, as a crit partner. Do we always agree? No, but that's just fine. The intention to make the work better is what matters.

Conversely, if I'm advising someone new on the Showcase, I don't often have the time for that level of detail. Further, I don't know them or what they're going for. Still, my opinion might help. How I deliver that depends a lot on what I read and what I do know of the person. It varies from piece to piece. Some I'm more harsh & direct, others I'm more suggestive. Trying to gauge the personality and needs of a writer I don't really know is difficult. Sometimes I'm going to swing and miss, but I can guarantee two things:
1) I'm always trying to help
2) Given enough time and energy, crit work with individuals always gets better as we grow to understand one another.

 

[BWFoster78]

I get that you want, for whatever reason, for there to be one way to write properly and for it to be the way you've deemed correct.

Steerpike,

I understand that you feel this way, but it is absolutely not correct. This is not my desire.

If I read a piece and think that it "works," I don't care how they accomplished it. Note also that I even think sometimes that things work even though I don't personally like it.

Where the issue comes in is when the piece, imo, just doesn't work. My answer is to tell the writer that it doesn't work and what I think needs to be done to fix it.

I feel that:

1. That's all I can really do. Tell what I think the problem is and how it should be fixed.
2. It's the writer's responsibility to either take the advice or leave it. I take absolutely no offense if the writer says, "that's not for me."

What I get from your comments is that you think I should take the time and effort to make sure that the writer understands that there are hundred other ways the writer might choose. To me, this puts responsibility on me that rightfully belongs on the writer. That's how I see the disagreement we're having, not the way you've stated it.

 

[Penpilot]

Here's the thing, though: if you see an apprentice carpenter screwing up, how do you help him? The only think I can think of is to try to explain to him how to use the tools. Seems to me like that's better than telling him, "Sorry, you have to figure it out on your own."

Yes. But you don't try to teach them to use every tool at the same time. It's about knowing which tool to teach and when. Sometimes some people aren't ready for a tool.

How do you possibly convey knowledge of all the tools available? It's apparent when you look at a total beginner that they have no clue. Even giving them simple information like, "This is boring because it lacks tension" and "You really need to show here because the telling just isn't working" is going to overwhelm them. Do you really think saying, "Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, any one of 10,366,729,152.12 techniques might work. Wait a second while I elaborate on each of them and include all the advantages and disadvantages of each."

Sometimes, you just need to tell the guy, "Dude, this is boring. Ramp up the tension. Here's how you do that:"

When I critique work, the first thing I try to do is find out what they want to achieve before I nudge them in any direction. Just recently in my writing group somebody submitted a short story, and my initial reaction was I wanted them to expand more, because everything was very brief and nothing was delved into deep enough. Then I found out they were writing to a 1500 word limit for a submission. That changed things. I instead suggested they chop a bunch of story elements and put the entire focus of the story on one particular part.

I always keep in mind that a the right piece of advice at the right time can be a great help, but also the wrong piece of advice at the wrong time can be detrimental. I prioritize big issues to small and sometimes I don't mention the small things because that can be counter productive. There's no use commenting about adverbs and passive sentence construction when they can't even put together a coherent story. That just distracts them from the more important things. When I critique, I don't look at it as my duty to solve every single thing that I think that is "wrong" with their piece. I focus on a handful of comments that will get the most mileage.