Weight loss and fat acceptance

[Devor]

All this advice about eating right and exercising, while well intended, is pointless. People who eat healthy and exercise often die from heart attacks, cancer and everything else just as much as overweight people do. I say love yourself, people.

You're so opening a can of worms. But it's true. The effects of being overweight are smaller than commonly portrayed.

The risks of being obese - they cause problems on the "national level," but the risks for an individual are comparatively small. Things sound worse than they are. As a rule I don't like to look up numbers to prove a point, but for example, if something has a 5% chance of happening, and being obese makes it 10% more likely, then that ten percent is applied to the 5%, giving the obese person.... a wopping 5.5% likelihood.

That +10% chance (or whatever it is) means a lot for our health systems, for how much we spend on healthcare, for how many beds and doctors are needed in the hospitals, for our rankings by the World Health Organization, but significantly less for the typical obese individual.

Diet and exercise can affect your energy levels, and all other aspects of your life. I found just switching breakfasts made a big difference for me, and I've been making other small changes. And my own weight hasn't been so bad - I don't mean to overstate.

But the undertone some people in our society have that overweight people are just eating themselves to death and playing Russian roulette with their lives, or entrenching themselves in laziness, is ridiculous. People adapt to their situation. Most people have the energy to do at least whatever they're doing, and if whatever they're doing in life is enough for them, then I wish them well.

So, I teach my children to be be careful with words, not to hurt. But, whatever they say, under it all nobody is fooled. I would scold my child equally for being unkind to a child with Down syndrome or for being obese, but at the same time, everyone knows that it is avoidable, some rare genetic cases aside. In the case of the child, the fault of the parent, in the case of the adult, their own choice and responsibility.

"Nobody is fooled"? I had to read that like six or seven times. Nobody is trying to fool you. Sure, obesity can avoided, with a tremendous exertion of willpower. But willpower - the ability of a person to take control of something in their lives and turn around the status quo - is a limited resource, and most of the time we spend it elsewhere. Like at work, or in relationships, or being kind to people we don't like - like our families (that's a joke - I love my family). What you sound like is, these people should want to, with all their heart, lose weight, and it should come first for everyone at all times because it's just that bad.

It's not.

I had to read your statement like six or seven times because I really kept seeing it as "Nobody is fooled" about your show of not being mean. Because it really does look like you and your kids are exerting that same willpower to put on a "kind show" over a disgusted face. It would be better for you to just get over it and stop seeing people as disgusting.

Most obese and overweight people are more or less just fine.

 

[Scribble]

Most obese and overweight people are more or less just fine.

Disgust is a reaction to unhealthiness. We have natural revulsion to certain odors and visual stimuli. The evolutionary benefit is to keep us healthy, keep us away from sickness, and to ensure we mate with healthy individuals. It's not right or wrong, good or bad, it's simply biology. You can change how people act and speak publicly, but it does not necessarily change the underlying reactions to biological stimuli. You can change attitudes of acceptance, which we should, but you can't change the natural revulsion. This is political correctness. I'm not saying we shouldn't work to change how people act, I'm saying we are kidding ourselves if we can make people feel okay about obesity.

That is opinion.

I respect your right to a different opinion, but I utterly reject the validity of your factual claims. The World Health Organization recognizes an obesity epidemic. If it was "no big deal", why would they? Well, there's good reasons.

Here are facts. (Source: Obesity-associated morbidity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) People are eating themselves to death.

Ischemic heart disease

Obesity is associated with cardiovascular diseases including angina and myocardial infarction.[2][3] A 2002 report concluded that 21% of ischemic heart disease is due to obesity[1] while a 2008 European consensus puts the number at 35%.[4]

Congestive heart failure

Having a BMI greater than 30 doubles one's risk of congestive heart failure.

High blood pressure

More than 85% of those with hypertension have a BMI greater than 25.[6] The risk of hypertension is 5 times higher in the obese as compared to those of normal weight. A definitive link between obesity and hypertension has been found using animal and clinical studies, which have suggested that there are multiple potential mechanisms for obesity-induced hypertension. These mechanisms include the activation of the sympathetic nervous system as well as the activation of the renin–angiotensin-aldosterone system.

Abnormal cholesterol levels

Obesity is associated with increased LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and lowered HDL cholesterol (good cholesterol).

Deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism

Obesity increases one's risk of venous thromboembolism by 2.3 fold.


Dermatological

Stretch marks on the abdomen.

Obesity is associated with the incidence of stretch marks, acanthosis nigricans, lymphedema, cellulitis, hirsutism, and intertrigo.

Diabetes

One of the strongest links between obesity and disease is that with type 2 diabetes. These two conditions are so strongly linked that researchers in the 1970s started calling it “diabesity”.

Excess weight is behind 64% of cases of diabetes in men and 77% of cases in women.[13]

Reproductive system

Polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS)

Due to its association with insulin resistance, the risk of PCOS increases with adiposity. In the US approximately 60% of patients with PCOS have a BMI greater than 30.[14]


Infertility

Obesity leads to infertility in both men and women. This is primarily due to excess estrogen interfering with normal ovulation in women and altering spermatogenesis in men.[15] It is believed to cause 6% of primary infertility. A review in 2013 came to the result that obesity increases the risk of oligospermia and azoospermia in men, with an of odds ratio 1.3. Being morbidly obese increases the odds ratio to 2.0.

Complications of pregnancy

Obesity is related to many complications in preganacy including: haemorrhage, infection, increased hospital stays for the mother, and increased NICU requirements for the infant. Obese women have more than twice the rate of C-sections compared to women of normal weight. Obese women also have increased risk of preterm births

Birth defects

Those who are obese during pregnancy have a greater risk of have a child with a number of congenital malformations including: neural tube defects such as anencephaly and spina bifida, cardiovascular anomalies, including septal anomalies, cleft lip and palate, anorectal malformation, limb reduction anomalies, and hydrocephaly.[21]
Intrauterine fetal death

Gastroesophageal reflux disease

Several studies have show that the frequency and severity of GERD symptoms are higher in those who are obese.

Fatty liver disease

Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease

Cholelithiasis (gallstones)


Stroke

Ischemic stroke is increased in both men and women who are obese. For women with a BMI greater than 30, the risk of ischemic stroke increases by 1.7 fold, while men with a BMI greater than 30 had a risk of stroke 2.0 times greater.
Meralgia paresthetica

Dementia

Those who are obese have a rate of dementia 1.4 times greater than those of normal weight.[29]
Idiopathic intracranial hypertension


Multiple sclerosis

Women that are obese at age 18 have a greater than twofold increased risk of MS.

Oncological

Many cancers occur at increased frequency in those who are overweight or obese. A study from the United Kingdom found that approximately 5% of cancer is due to excess weight. These cancers include: breast, ovarian, esophageal, colorectal, liver, pancreatic, gallbladder, stomach, endometrial, cervical, prostate, kidney, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, multiple myeloma


Depression


Risk of suicide decreases with increased body mass index in the United States.

Obesity has been associated with depression. The relationship is strongest in those who are more severely obese, those who are younger, and in women. Suicide rate however decreases with increased BMI.

Social stigmatization

In the United States, young women who are overweight complete 0.3 year less school, are 20% less likely to get married, and make $6,710 less than their normal weight counterparts.

Obstructive sleep apnea

Obesity hypoventilation syndrome

Obesity hypoventilation syndrome is defined as the combination of obesity, hypoxia during sleep, and hypercapnia during the day, resulting from hypoventilation. Based on its definition it occurs only in the obese.

Chronic lung disease

Obesity is associated with a number of chronic lung diseases, including asthma and COPD. It is believed that a systemic pro-inflammatory state induced by some causes of obesity may contribute to airway inflammation, leading to asthma.

Complications during general anaesthesia

Gout

Compared to men with a BMI of 21 - 23, men with a BMI of 30 - 35 have 2.3 times more gout, and men with a BMI of greater than 35 have 3.0 times more gout. Weight loss decreases these risks.

Poor mobility

There is a strong association between obesity and musculoskeletal pain and disability

Osteoarthritis

Increased rates of arthritis are seen in both weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing joints.[6] Those with a BMI greater than 26.4 had rate of osteoarthritis of the knees 6 times greater than those with a BMI of less than 23.4, well rates of osteoarthritis in the hand was about 1.5 times greater.

Low back pain

Obese individuals are twice to four times more likely to have lower back pain than their normal weight peers.[44]

Erectile dysfunction

One third of obese men with erectile dysfunction who lose weight experience an improvement in their sexual functioning.

Urinary incontinence

Urge, stress, and mixed incontinence all occur at higher rates in the obese. The rates are about double that found in the normal weight population.[47] Urinary incontinence improves with weight lost.

Chronic renal failure

Obesity increases one's risk of renal failure by three to four times.




If I didn't give a shit about people, I'd say, hey head over to the buffet table, don't worry about it. I'd rather be harsh in words than polite and let people kill themselves. Sorry.

 

[Devor]

I respect your right to a different opinion, but I utterly reject the validity of your factual claims.

I don't know that you understood my factual claims, if I even made any.

Find this: "What percentage of obese people die from issues related to obesity." Make sure it removes a percentage of people to account for those who were likely to die from those issues anyway.

 

[Scribble]

That +10% chance (or whatever it is) means a lot for our health systems...

It's people who are being killed, not numbers! The numbers come from counting the number of people that obesity has killed!

For 2010, the number of people who died due to heart disease in the USA 597,689.

According to 2008, they say 35% of heart disease cases were caused by obesity. 35% of 597,689 is 209,191 people. People who, if they were not obese would not likely have died. Not numbers, people.

200,000 people killed by heart disease due to obesity. That doesn't include any of the other diseases I mentioned above.

WHO | Obesity and overweight

Overweight and obesity are linked to more deaths worldwide than underweight. For example, 65% of the world's population live in countries where overweight and obesity kill more people than underweight (this includes all high-income and most middle-income countries).

Here's a good site for information on BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/21702372

 

[Reaver]

@Scribble: How about getting your "facts" from peer reviewed (and by peer I mean physicians) publications with empirical data like the American Journal of Medicine? Not Wikipedia. ANYTHING but Wikipedia. How can anyone take any information coming from an "encyclopedia" in whiich an eight year old can contrbute seriously?

 

[Reaver]

Ninja'd and thank you Scribble!

 

[Scribble]

@Scribble: How about getting your "facts" from peer reviewed (and by peer I mean physicians) publications with empirical data like the American Journal of Medicine? Not Wikipedia. ANYTHING but Wikipedia. How can anyone take any information coming from an "encyclopedia" in whiich an eight year old can contrbute seriously?

Oh, convenience... I know this well, and I always feel a twinge when I do it. It's a topic that gets a lot of scrutiny, but hardly scientific controversy, so I felt okay taking it. I did click into some of the references to assure myself it was reasonably safe to quote.

I felt it was "good enough" for the purpose of this discussion. My father in law is a medical professional in the US, focused on diabetes. We've had a lot of discussions on the topic, on diet, food culture, etc... And this fits with what we've talked about over the years. Obesity is quite common in his family. Including myself, who used to be obese!

Point taken though! Touché!

 

[Reaver]

I'm waiting for the anti-smoking thread to pop up soon. That causes more deaths worldwide than being obese.

 

[Steerpike]

 

[Reaver]

Classic Steerpike. You kick ass my friend.

 

[Scribble]

I'm waiting for the anti-smoking thread to pop up soon. That causes more deaths worldwide than being obese.

Hmm... not according to some articles I've read! It seems as though obesity has passed smoking as a top killer. Worth a read.

Obesity's disease burden worse than smoking - Health - CBC News

I tend to trust CBC and BBC news. I saw some similar articles in Australian news. I searched quickly for scholarly articles, but it takes some time to sift through them. I'll put it on my stack.

The trouble with that is how people perceive the information... "Oh, well, I'll start smoking then to help me lose weight, it's more healthy!" LOL

 

[C Hollis]

I think I'm going to climb on my motorcycle and go get me a double bacon cheeseburger and a 64 ounce Mountain Dew. After that I'll grab me a carton of smokes, go to the bar and see how many Jack and Cokes I can pour down. Then I'll have to catch an hour or two of shut-eye before work and eat red M&M's for breakfast.

In the end, we all die.

 

[Scribble]

In the end, we all die.

True.

I just want to die at 125 after riding my motorcycle back from a marathon I just ran, on my way to meet some senior senoritas at a yoga class, not at 55 on a respirator!

 

[Devor]

It's people who are being killed, not numbers! The numbers come from counting the number of people that obesity has killed!

You still haven't responded to the point I was making, so I'm not sure you've understood it.

There's a difference between "what's good for society" and "what's good for me." Equating the two is called the fallacy of composition. That obesity kills people is a different concept to someone who only considers, "will my obesity kill me?" Being an "epidemic in society" is different from being "the primary problem in my life on which all of my willpower should be focused."

Is obesity the first of those - a massive societal problem that needs to be addressed? Absolutely.

Is obesity the second one - a massive personal problem for an individual which demands all of that person's energy, is shameful to ignore and worthy of your disgust? Well no, not always, and certainly you can't know the answer to that based on glancing at strangers on the street.

The world is a weird and wacky place, and it's important to recognize that other people don't need to share your opinions and your priorities when it comes to living their lives.

 

[Scribble]

You still haven't responded to the point I was making, so I'm not sure you've understood it.

There's a difference between "what's good for society" and "what's good for me." Equating the two is called the fallacy of composition. That obesity kills people is a different concept to someone who only considers, "will my obesity kill me?" Being an "epidemic in society" is different from being "the primary problem in my life on which all of my willpower should be focused."

Is obesity the first of those - a massive societal problem that needs to be addressed? Absolutely.

Is obesity the second one - a massive personal problem for an individual which demands all of that person's energy, is shameful to ignore and worthy of your disgust? Well no, not always, and certainly you can't know the answer to that based on glancing at strangers on the street.

The world is a weird and wacky place, and it's important to recognize that other people don't need to share your opinions and your priorities when it comes to living their lives.

I appreciate that other people don't need to share my priorities, however, their choices do affect me. Rising costs of health care affect me, not indirectly, but directly - in my taxes and in the quality of health care I can expect to receive.

More than this, it affects innocent children. Unhealthy eating habits are transmitted vertically from parents to children. We imprint by the age of 4 or 5 what is safe to eat, and what is "yucky", based on what our parents feed us. We learn what are acceptable levels of physical activity in the same way. So, in fact this epidemic is also hurting my children's future because it is burdening their world with people who will need significantly more health care.

What's good for society is good for the individual, it's not a fallacy as I see it. There are things that people do around the world that are harmful to themselves, and their children, and it has a global impact. We aren't islands, we are all part of an interconnected society.

Society doesn't fix problems, individuals do. Society is made up of individuals, it isn't some amorphous thing that exists apart from us, we are society.

In the past, obesity was usually only occurring due to gluttony. Now, we live in a food culture where if you go with the flow, you will end up obese. The problem is that there isn't a switch that health organizations can make, you can't (at least today) inoculate people against over-eating. Frighteningly, the only solution to the obesity epidemic I see is 1) the education of individuals and 2) the action of those individuals to make changes in society, at their personal level.

You are right, people don't need to share priorities or opinions, and I support that, but again, we aren't alone in this boat.

On a personal level, my Dad is obese and eats terribly. He has diabetes, and has had a heart attack just recently. All of that could be avoided by changing his diet and exercising, but he is stubborn. It doesn't only affect him. When he is ill, who will manage his affairs? Who is going to have to take care of him? His parents didn't know about nutrition. He learned from them, I learned from him. All this ignorance costs dearly. I stopped the chain with me, with my children. At what cost to time? Unhappiness? Pain? And yes, money and time?. At what cost to time for my children? It's not an abstract problem.

 

[Devor]

I appreciate that other people don't need to share my priorities, however, their choices do affect me. Rising costs of health care affect me, not indirectly, but directly - in my taxes and in the quality of health care I can expect to receive.

Sure, okay. But if it's a societal problem, address it on the societal level. What I'm saying is, let's leave the individuals alone.

 

[Scribble]

Sure, okay. But if it's a societal problem, address it on the societal level. What I'm saying is, let's leave the individuals alone.

That does not compute! Where is society? Where do we send them an email to let them know about the obesity epidemic?

Society, it's us. You, me, everyone reading this forum, our aunts, uncles, children, cousins, and co-workers - that is society. A collection of individuals.

 

[Scribble]

From the Center for Disease control:

CDC - Obesity - Facts - Adolescent and School Health

Prevention

Healthy lifestyle habits, including healthy eating and physical activity, can lower the risk of becoming obese and developing related diseases.

The dietary and physical activity behaviors of children and adolescents are influenced by many sectors of society, including families, communities, schools, child care settings, medical care providers, faith-based institutions, government agencies, the media, and the food and beverage industries and entertainment industries.

Schools play a particularly critical role by establishing a safe and supportive environment with policies and practices that support healthy behaviors. Schools also provide opportunities for students to learn about and practice healthy eating and physical activity behaviors.

All these preventions can only be effected by individuals working at an individual level in their spheres of influence. That's what I'm getting at.

There's hope! Obesity Rate For Poor U.S. Children Falls Significantly For The First Time | ThinkProgress

The slight drop in childhood obesity isn't due to something that some nebulous society did, it's parents feeding their children, pushing the need for exercise, school administration workers changing rules and meals, educating individuals.

 

[BWFoster78]

I'm late to the thread and have no desire to get in the middle of the fun debate between Scribble and Devor. I did, however, want to share a thought.

While losing weight is easy (expend more calories than you consume), finding the willpower to make the necessary changes is anything but. From my experience, one only loses weight when losing weight becomes important enough to overcome the bad habits (talking specifically about people who weigh too much b/c of non-medical reasons here) that led to the gain.

I've been overweight most of my life. When I got married over 10 years ago, I went on a diet and lost 45 pounds before the wedding. Over the next 9 years, I gained 20 of that back. Not great, but still 25 pounds to the good.

A year ago, we got a 2 year old foster child who we're in the process of adopting. It didn't take me long to decide that I wanted to be healthy enough to live to see him grow up.

I've lost an additional 45 pounds since then and don't doubt that I'll reach my goal of 30 more eventually.

There is absolutely no way anyone besides me could have convinced me to do what is necessary to lose the weight. It's hard saying "no" when a coworker brings cake or donuts. It's hard not buying junk food. It's hard choosing not to eat something I don't particularly like because I know it's good for me.

Not sure exactly what this added to the conversation, but there it is...

 

[Devor]

I'm late to the thread and have no desire to get in the middle of the fun debate between Scribble and Devor.

No worries there, I think I've run through it. The next step would be to either repeat, go personal, or go political. I'm not up for any of those.