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Weight loss and fat acceptance

Scribble

Archmage
I've decided this will be the last "political discussion" I get into here. I apologize if any of my words have hurt anyone's feelings.

I care about people, I want everyone to be healthy, but also happy.
 

Rinzei

Troubadour
I've decided this will be the last "political discussion" I get into here. I apologize if any of my words have hurt anyone's feelings.

I care about people, I want everyone to be healthy, but also happy.

Scribbles - I'm sorry if you feel you might have offended anyone. I personally wasn't offended by your opinion, because I could tell it was coming from a health concern point-of-view and that's one I respect. I can't speak for anyone else, but my response to the thread was based on that fact that health isn't why most people try to lose weight - it's a societal need to be "skinny". And it is a difference between losing weight to be healthy and losing weight to be skinny. Most people are after the latter - I agree with you, however, that the former should be the reason for losing weight.

If I was ever offended by anything in this thread at any point, it wasn't from you - just rest assured of that. I agree that the thread may have gotten a little sensitive - I think it was doomed to step on someone's toes from the get-go.
 

Scribble

Archmage
Scribbles - I'm sorry if you feel you might have offended anyone. I personally wasn't offended by your opinion, because I could tell it was coming from a health concern point-of-view and that's one I respect. I can't speak for anyone else, but my response to the thread was based on that fact that health isn't why most people try to lose weight - it's a societal need to be "skinny". And it is a difference between losing weight to be healthy and losing weight to be skinny. Most people are after the latter - I agree with you, however, that the former should be the reason for losing weight.

If I was ever offended by anything in this thread at any point, it wasn't from you - just rest assured of that. I agree that the thread may have gotten a little sensitive - I think it was doomed to step on someone's toes from the get-go.

Alright, thanks.

I was looking over some photos. It took me 6 years to lose my weight and get fit. I had to unlearn all the bad things I had been taught, go counter to what our food culture is pushing, and change my lifestyle. Today, I have energy, no pain. Best of all, when I go the park with my kids, I climb the trees and monkey bars with them! I can do it all, and it's because I treat my body as something sacred. I don't put junk into it. The side effect is that I also look good.

6 years ago... 260 lbs and zero muscle. I was always sick, in pain, lethargic, unable to enjoy living in my body.

main-qimg-2c529260d6a3f41adff7d3bed714c885


3 years ago...

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2 years ago...

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1 year ago.

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I've spent years reading, learning, and experimenting with what gets me to my optimal health. I make all my own food. I've discovered a joy of cooking. Friday nights, I have a little wine and start chopping vegetables, making culinary magic. Rather than a source of shame and indigestion, food has become a positive experience. The conclusion I have come to is that our western world, they way it works, unless you fight it, will make you fat and sick. Our western culture is health-broken.
 

Motley

Minstrel
I think self-acceptance got a bit blown out of proportion in cases like this. Nothing unhealthy should be glorified, in my opinion. But being overweight is so insanely vilified and attacked that people probably feel the need to stand together to get any type of support at all. It keeps the focus on the wrong thing: the body, instead of the person inside.

There are people who find very large people more attractive than thin people, and they can join groups of "chubby-lovers" or whatever you want to call them. There is no question that it's unhealthy and should be worked on, but I don't think anyone should feel the need to think their own body is disgusting.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
hey, Jabrosky, I wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing.
Not so well, I'm sorry to say. I have been slacking on the exercise. In fact that's been a recurring theme for me whenever I try to lose weight. I stay committed for a few days or weeks and successfully shed a few pounds, but as time progresses my enthusiasm wanes and I start slacking and gaining weight again. Worsening the issue even more is that I've always disliked the taste of most so-called healthy foods (except for certain fruits). I am starting to doubt that I have the willpower to ever lose weight permanently.

Thank you for the concern. :)

There are people who find very large people more attractive than thin people, and they can join groups of "chubby-lovers" or whatever you want to call them. There is no question that it's unhealthy and should be worked on, but I don't think anyone should feel the need to think their own body is disgusting.
The problem with me in particular is that even though I'm fat myself, I don't regard fat figures as physically attractive. Especially not on women. All the girls that attract me are much leaner and shapely than myself. That wouldn't cause such a problem if there were thinner women who were open to larger men, but somehow it doesn't seem fair to gravitate towards slender ladies when I'm obese.
 
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Kit

Maester
I on the other hand am doing great. I am in the process of dropping fifteen pounds in order to compete in a tournament in the fall, and this morning I am 7 pounds down with 8 to go. Lots of hard work, though- all day, every day.

Eating so much chicken breast and eggs that I'm expecting to start laying eggs myself any minute.
 

Scribble

Archmage
My five principles might sound like cheesy slogans, but it's the essence how I got to where I wanted to be.

1) Failure is the fuel of success.
2) The past is gone, act today, plan for tomorrow.
3) Willpower is a feeble ally.
4) Burn the calories.
5) Change the diet.


Failure is the fuel of success

Getting to success is learning about what causes you to fail and finding ways to avoid it. We slipped, we didn't go to the gym, we bought the chips/cookies/fries and we ate them. And then we did it again. And we think we can't.

Self-recrimination is a very useful tool! So long as we use it constructively. We made plans, and we failed at those plans. Why? What happened? What could you have done differently?

These little events, these moments are the real gems! They give you a clear and sober look at what your default programming leads you to do. You've got to change the programming. You've got to treat this as an exercise of changing your brain, not your body.

Think about what happened, and how you can do it differently next time. That's how we change. There's no other way I know of.


The past is gone, act today, plan for tomorrow.

F*** yesterday! It's gone, to hell with it. Trying to keep it around just clutters up the place.

What separates us from the other animals is we can make plans for the future and change our behavior.

Plan out your day on a little notepad. Visualize yourself going through your day doing the things you planned to do. Think about the ways in which you failed in the past, and what your practiced response to those moments will be.


Willpower is a feeble ally.

Brain science has shown that will power works kind of like a reservoir. You were `good` all day, then, you are presented with a temptation to eat something bad, or slack off exercising... and bam! You can`t even believe it, you are doing it, and you can`t stop yourself? Why? It's so frustrating!

We like to think we have free will, but we really don`t. If you scan your brain, every idea you have in your conscious mind was already made by your sub-conscious mind milliseconds before you became aware of it. You are mostly the puppet of your subconscious.

But, not entirely. We`ve got a little window to try to change that default programming, that`s your conscious mind.

KNOW that your will power will run out. Get rid of the stuff in the house. Get rid of the crackers (a killer), get rid of anything snacky. The honey. Toss out the peanut butter. Anything you might find yourself binge-eating.

Your body wants to maintain it's current weight. When you start losing, you will feel urges to conserve calories, and to get them back. These are the cycles you need to use your brain to protect against. This is the part where it gets hard.

But then, it goes. You settle into a new plateau. Your body settles in. You lost 5 lbs, and you feel fine. Start another cycle, a new goal.

Willpower is garbage. Don't rely on it. Be smart.


Burn the calories.

Do things that are fun. Start with long walks, listen to some new stuff. There are some awesome SF and Fantasy fiction podcasts. Load em up on your player and enjoy. A 25 minute podcast is a good listen and a good power walk.

http://escapepod.org/
Lightspeed Magazine | Science Fiction & Fantasy
Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Literary Adventure Fantasy

Change the diet.

This is the hardest one. Your partner or parents are used to you eating a certain way, and they probably eat the same way. It's damned hard to change other people. Don't. Change yourself.

This is how I lost my first 30 lbs. I couldn't exercise, I had a hernia surgery because I let my gut get so big I busted it.

LA Weight Loss is actually the basis of a very healthy diet.

Daily

2 large proteins (8 oz chicken, 5 oz beef/pork, 6 oz fish)
4 vegetables (1 cup raw, 1/2 cup cooked)
2 starches (1 small potato, 1 slice bread)
3 fruit (an orange, apple, 15 grapes)
2 light protein snacks (tbsp sunflower seeds, an egg, a 9 gram protein bar)
1 dairy (1 cup milk)
2 extra (tsp ketchup, tbsp salad dressing)
6 glasses of water a day - don't drink any calories. Drink green tea all you want, it's good for ya. Add a twist of lemon.


Once a week, have a carb craver. Plate of nachos, bag of popcorn, big pasta meal. A few beers. I did it Fridays as a treat.

Alchohol.

If you want a beer, it's one starch. A glass of wine is one starch AND one fruit. So, swap wisely.

That's the losing diet. The maintaining diet is the same as above, only you add 1 starch, and 1 dairy. You may have to adjust for frame size. You'll know just by the scale.

The secret is being prepared. I made all my food in advance, and I had it all with me to work. A big bag.
 
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Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I hate exercise. Yep. HATE it!!!

The thing is, I'm 120 lbs and 5'3", so I don't worry about it much. I know, however, that active, overweight people are often healthier than thin, sedentary people. SO there's that to consider, too. Some people just store fat differently, and it's something they become ashamed of. That's sad, really. My mother has struggled with her weight her whole adult life and recently lost 70 pounds (we have the same exact skeleton, so imagine my horror to find she was carrying a hundred extra pounds than me on the same bones). I'm so proud of her. When people make positive changes, whether it's leaving a demeaning relationship, taking up a new hobby to learn more, or losing weight, it shows in them. Their personalities change and their outlook becomes brighter. I think anything that makes people feel better about themselves and gets them to live a little more is a good change. No matter what.

Way to go, all you people in this world who are actively trying to make your one chance on this earth a little longer and happier. That's all we can do.

Last year I weighed 140 pounds ( I didn't lose the 10 pounds I gained with my third baby) and I didn't feel as awesome as normal. But I've had a pain condition for years that has made me miserable. Last year, I lost 20 pounds because I can't eat when I'm in pain and then I began taking pain killers every day and they suppressed my appetite. I feel better now, not only because I'm no longer in pain, but because I feel like I look good, feel great, and am a way better mother to my kids now that I'm no longer suffering through a crippling condition. I would honestly trade being in pain for being fat. SO... like I said, all we can do is the best we can. Honesty with ourselves is priceless and while I hate admitting I'm medicated to deal with my pain, I'm a much happier person now that I don't have to open a bag of chips and leave my four small children unattended while I go lie down because "Mommy's neck hurts too much today."

I'm glad to hear success stories anyone wants to share because it gives me hope of making the changes necessary for me to one day be really happy with my own skin, you know?
 
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Ophiucha

Auror
I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind. Can't run, can't play several sports. Walking and biking are both okay, though. Can't afford a bicycle (yay being poor!), but I usually can get a two mile walk into my schedule. Most of my exercise is stretching and toning, though. Doesn't do anything for my weight, but as I've expressed earlier in the thread, that's not really my goal while I exercise. I just keep myself healthy and active. Depending on who I'm living with (since my friends all have different exercise habits), I also go to the pool and play badminton. I prefer not to go to the pool without my husband or a small group, though, and I can't play badminton by myself, so it's not always on the table.

Mostly, I just eat healthy. Which is very easy for me, since I am also a cook with a bit of culinary school experience. It can be hard to find affordable, healthy foods - particularly in Vancouver, which has a bit of a tree hugger community of privileged rich kids - but the grocery stores tend to have good 3-for-1 deals and the farmer's market isn't too hard to get to, and cheaper than the grocery store. Learning how to freeze and preserve produce is probably the greatest thing you can do if you're trying to eat healthy on a budget, because come winter time, a head of lettuce is going to cost more than buying enough McDonald's to build your own head out of the pieces they toss on top of the patty. I grow a few of my own herbs, so knowing how to dry those and freeze them is a fantastic cost saver. Making jam is great, too.

Of course, this assumes you don't cook for a picky eater. Between my brother and my mum, I'm amazed I can come up with a month's worth of recipes. My mom won't eat whole grain or whole wheat pasta, bread, or rice. My brother won't eat any fish or more than 2 vegetarian dishes a week. Everyone but my dad is allergic to shellfish. Between the four of us, there are almost no vegetables we can agree on (I don't like tomatoes unless they are in a sauce; my dad doesn't like squash; my mom doesn't like cucumber or celery or lettuce or anything excessively crunchy or moist; my brother doesn't like anything that isn't starchy). My brother doesn't like alcohol in any sort of sauce, my mom doesn't like onions. I am blissfully moving out of the house in a week and a half, but I've been living with them for nine months now and it's been a test of my abilities as a chef to find a way to feed everyone - all of whom except myself are on diets - without just serving steamed carrots and chicken breasts (my brother doesn't like brown meat) for every meal.
 
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Rinzei

Troubadour
I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind.

Exercise-induced asthma (asthma that only triggers during exercise) sucks - I have the same thing, especially for jogging/running. I feel fine 24/7 - unless I decide to take a jog. Then I get five feet and my lungs suddenly cease up. It's incredibly frustrating to me because even though I'm overweight, I don't stop because I'm tired - I'm not at all - but because my lungs suddenly decide to give up. I'm planning on seeing the doctor again to get some other medicine, because the inhalers I've used in the past weren't good enough. In the meantime, I'm moving this/next month anyway so I'll be able to jump on the exercise bike again and use that in the meantime.

With exercise-induced asthma, longer-exertion sports aren't off the table, but they can be harder to handle - such as running or soccer/football. It's recommended to do exercise/sports with shorter intervals of exertion, like volleyball, walking, etc. Swimming is also recommended, because the air around a pool stays warm and moist - cold dry air when exercising is what triggers exercise-induced asthma, so it's good for the lungs of an asthmatic. Conversely, cold-weather sports may not be the best for the same reason.
 

Scribble

Archmage
I have mild sleep apnea. I can breathe through my nose just fine - except when exercising heavy, I just can't get enough oxygen throughput. The nose helps regulate temperature and humidity before the air hits your lungs.

So, since I have to breathe through my mouth when running, I find it very hard to run outside in cold or hot humid weather. I live in Eastern Canada, so that's pretty much most of the year... So, I run on the treadmill at the gym, and a little outside in spring and fall.

I would LOVE to run outside all year round, but I find it I end up rasping when it's too cold or hot. So, I run on the treadmill. It's not very exciting, but I listen to good podcasts, and I do love the feel of pushing my body further than it could go before.

That is the addiction for me. I can always improve. I can always find a new exercise that hits me a little different. I love trying out a new routine and feeling the next day a little bit of muscle in a nook that I hadn't hit before. It's a game.

Some days, I am exhausted. I was up at 6:30, left at 7, worked all day, back home 6:30, eat, play with kids, put them to bed... 8:00... I want so much just to lie down and do nothing. I grab my bag, and get my ass to the gym. Once I am there, and I get on the treadmill to warm up... my energy comes back! Then, when I get home at 9:10, I am ripped with energy. I've got two hours or so until 11:30 where I feel alert. This is when I get my writing done.

To make space for it all, I had to give up video games, television, most social media. I have this site and Twitter, that's it. Not sorry to see them go.
 

Scribble

Archmage
I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind. Can't run, can't play several sports. Walking and biking are both okay, though. Can't afford a bicycle (yay being poor!), but I usually can get a two mile walk into my schedule. Most of my exercise is stretching and toning, though. Doesn't do anything for my weight, but as I've expressed earlier in the thread, that's not really my goal while I exercise. I just keep myself healthy and active. Depending on who I'm living with (since my friends all have different exercise habits), I also go to the pool and play badminton. I prefer not to go to the pool without my husband or a small group, though, and I can't play badminton by myself, so it's not always on the table.

Mostly, I just eat healthy. Which is very easy for me, since I am also a cook with a bit of culinary school experience. It can be hard to find affordable, healthy foods - particularly in Vancouver, which has a bit of a tree hugger community of privileged rich kids - but the grocery stores tend to have good 3-for-1 deals and the farmer's market isn't too hard to get to, and cheaper than the grocery store. Learning how to freeze and preserve produce is probably the greatest thing you can do if you're trying to eat healthy on a budget, because come winter time, a head of lettuce is going to cost more than buying enough McDonald's to build your own head out of the pieces they toss on top of the patty. I grow a few of my own herbs, so knowing how to dry those and freeze them is a fantastic cost saver. Making jam is great, too.

Of course, this assumes you don't cook for a picky eater. Between my brother and my mum, I'm amazed I can come up with a month's worth of recipes. My mom won't eat whole grain or whole wheat pasta, bread, or rice. My brother won't eat any fish or more than 2 vegetarian dishes a week. Everyone but my dad is allergic to shellfish. Between the four of us, there are almost no vegetables we can agree on (I don't like tomatoes unless they are in a sauce; my dad doesn't like squash; my mom doesn't like cucumber or celery or lettuce or anything excessively crunchy or moist; my brother doesn't like anything that isn't starchy). My brother doesn't like alcohol in any sort of sauce, my mom doesn't like onions. I am blissfully moving out of the house in a week and a half, but I've been living with them for nine months now and it's been a test of my abilities as a chef to find a way to feed everyone - all of whom except myself are on diets - without just serving steamed carrots and chicken breasts (my brother doesn't like brown meat) for every meal.

I make my own meals. I can't eat what everyone else eats. I take the time on Sunday and make a big batch of something and I eat it all week. I put veggies in the fridge, chop em up. I don't eat what everyone else eats, simple as that. My wife isn't interested in eating the way I do, so she eats her way, I eat mine. Most of the kids are somewhere between.

It makes more work for me on the weekend, but it's my health at stake. I'm not going to sacrifice it for the sake of convenience, or trying to please other people, even if they are my family.

I don't eat cheese, bread, or processed meats (any meat), so if they want to have a pepperoni pizza on a Friday, that's fine. I've got my own stuff I can eat and we can sit together. I went to my mother's for Christmas dinner, and there was carrots and salad I could eat. If we are going somewhere for dinner at someone's house, I ask what they are having. My dad had a BBQ, I brought my own thing to put on the grill. I'd like it if people were sensitive to my needs, but I don't expect it, or complain about it. I don't expect anyone other than very close friends who are savvy to make something particular for me. It's my choice and it is too complex to educate people on what I can or can't eat. It took me seven years of reading, discussion, research, and experimentation to arrive at what I feel is my optimal diet: essentially ovo-vegetarian with 2-3 servings of fish per week.
 
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Rinzei

Troubadour
Scribble, I think you have more discipline regarding healthy eating than I have in my entire body. That is just...WOW. I commend you for the work you're putting in and maintaining it.
 

Scribble

Archmage
Scribble, I think you have more discipline regarding healthy eating than I have in my entire body. That is just...WOW. I commend you for the work you're putting in and maintaining it.

Thanks Rinzei, but's something that evolved over years. I was totally out of balance in my early 30's. Working 60 hour weeks, playing video games until late, not eating well, smoking, not sleeping well, not exercising. I looked like shit and I felt like shit.

Slowly, bit by bit, I have worked towards achieving a balance of body-mind-spirit. I've got the body part going, but I'm always learning, always trying new things. The mind and spirit parts, still working on it. :)
 

Scribble

Archmage
I on the other hand am doing great. I am in the process of dropping fifteen pounds in order to compete in a tournament in the fall, and this morning I am 7 pounds down with 8 to go. Lots of hard work, though- all day, every day.

Eating so much chicken breast and eggs that I'm expecting to start laying eggs myself any minute.

That's great, Kit! An accomplishment.

Careful you don't end up like this woman...

Airplane! - Egg Scene - YouTube
 

Rinzei

Troubadour
The mind and spirit parts, still working on it. :)

Aren't we all, aren't we all... :)

I've just had my first life insurance quote that raised my premium because of my "height to weight ratio". Oof! Right in the over-sized gut! As soon as we move to our new house (which is imminent), I'm going to see about going to the dietician at my new doctor's office. The few health problems I have (oddly enough, not weight-cased!) make more conventional diets or calorie counting dangerous for me, so I'd really like to have medical help to make sure I know what's good for me personally and what's not.
 

Ophiucha

Auror
God, I would love it if everyone in this house cooked for themselves. My mom is the one who cooks when I'm not here, and she's... not very good? I love her, but let's just say there's a reason I've been chubby since I was six. She makes very little from scratch, and if it can't be tossed in a slow cooker, she also doesn't like making anything that requires more than an hour's work before dinner. We end up with a lot of chewy stews, or worse, watery mush that may have once been chicken and carrots. And she uses pre-cooked chicken and jarred mushrooms and canned foods wherever she can. It's very theoretically healthy food, with entirely too much salt and floating bits of fat and entirely too little flavour.

My father can be a bit traditional, let's say, about who should be cooking in a household. And earlier this summer I caught my brother trying to make a banana smoothie by putting a single peel-on, frozen banana in the electric cheese grater, after which he hasn't tried making anything new without my supervision.

@Rinzei, I mostly stick to walking and biking if I am living with my mum (who owns a bike). I love swimming - grew up on an island - but that, basketball, and badminton are a pain because I can never find anyone else who wants to. It was easier in college when I could just go to the dorm's court and find someone willing to play badminton or tennis (or handball, since that was in the same area). And I avoid going to the pool by myself because of multiple bad experiences with some of the older gentlemen who are in attendance as well. My husband likes to swim, but hates public pools (and if we can't afford a bike, we certainly can't afford a pool), and the rest of my friends are bizarre weirdos who hate swimming.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Not so well, I'm sorry to say. I have been slacking on the exercise. In fact that's been a recurring theme for me whenever I try to lose weight. I stay committed for a few days or weeks and successfully shed a few pounds, but as time progresses my enthusiasm wanes and I start slacking and gaining weight again. Worsening the issue even more is that I've always disliked the taste of most so-called healthy foods (except for certain fruits). I am starting to doubt that I have the willpower to ever lose weight permanently.

I've been heavy for my height a while now, but until recently I never gave it much thought, because I was pretty involved in sports, three or four times a weak, so I was pretty agile and quick. I was 160lbs and 5'5. That's on the heavy side for my height. But then, a couple of years ago I cut back on my athletics to about once every week. BIG MISTAKE. I slurped up twenty pounds, and I could feel it in my joints and bones. When I saw the extra pounds, I tried to eat better and less, but that didn't work. So about four months ago started to work out, push ups, sit up, leg exercises every other day and a mile and a half run on days I wasn't doing that other stuff. On top of that I was playing hockey three times a week and softball once. I did this for a month. Another big mistake. I pushed too hard too fast. I wore myself out. My conditioning actually went down. It was scary. I couldn't exert myself athletically, eg skating hard, for more than 15 seconds without feeling exhausted afterwards.

So, I adjusted. I stopped my push ups etc., and jogging, and just kept to my hockey and softball. My conditioning improved, but it's still no where near where I was a couple of years ago. But I've lost 10lbs. My joints were feeling pretty meh for a while, but when I added walking to my routine, things started to feel better. Two to four times a week during the evening, I walk a mile to a McDonalds to have some tea--no burgers and stuff-- and write for an hour or two, then I walk back. That two miles I find is nice maintenance. It maintains my fitness level. It's not hard to do, but I gets the blood flowing.

My diet, I added a little pasta, eggs, fruits and greens. I eat four or five times a day. Small meals. I eat until I'm just short of feeling full then I wait an hour or so. If I'm still hungry, I have some boiled broccoli or some fruit. I still eat chocolate, ice cream, and stuff, but I manage my intake. If I'm craving chocolate. I take a small handful and that's all I get for a few hours.

In a nutshell, IMHO, if you want to lose weight, or rather get healthier, you have to increase your physical activity. I think doing something physical is easier than counting your calories. You don't have to go out and do sports. I say start with walking. Try what I'm doing, find a place to walk to and write, then walk home. I find the walk helps me think about my stories and stuff.

Remember losing weight and keeping it gone isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. It's not easy to keep going. One trick I use to keep me going when I'm doing something difficult. I ask myself do I really want to do X. If I don't, then I should just go do something else, be happy and stop getting down on myself about not doing X. Part of it is really wanting to do it, and convincing yourself that it's important. One thing a professor said to me once--it was an off handed comment, but it stuck with me-- "You get what you put into it."
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
All this advice about eating right and exercising, while well intended, is pointless. People who eat healthy and exercise often die from heart attacks, cancer and everything else just as much as overweight people do. I say love yourself, people.

F**k what everyone else thinks. Seriously, if they don't love, respect and appreciate you for the miracle that you are, then f**k the f**king f**kers.
You are all beautiful and amazing, no matter what you look like. Just think of all the forces in this universe that came together in that one miraculous moment that resulted in YOU.

The only thing that's truly important is that you're happy. If that means exercising and all that...so be it. Age quod agis. What makes me happy is making others happy. I've also done my utmost to live by the philosophy of a passage I read a very long time ago in The Epic of Gilgamesh:

“What you seek you shall never find.
For when the gods made man,
They kept immortality to themselves.
Fill your belly.
Day and night make merry.
Let Days be full of joy.
Love the child who holds your hand.
Let your wife delight in your embrace.
For these alone are the concerns of man.”

Well, that's your pal Reaver's two cents on this topic. I'll get down off of my soapbox now.
 
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