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What I'm Saying Is, The Search For Equality Is Pretty Messy

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
In all honesty, I can't think of any reasonable reason it would detract from the story.

I still feel you ought to have a reason for him being black, even if just for yourself - especially if he's showing up in a location where black people are a minority/rarity. I'm assuming you wouldn't put a black guy where it wouldn't make intuitive sense for him to be without providing an explanation?

Would I need a reason to make him white?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I'm assuming you wouldn't put a black guy where it wouldn't make intuitive sense for him to be without providing an explanation?

You need internal consistency in a story. But if you're creating the fantasy world, then having a homogenous society where diversity doesn't work is a choice you made, not some commandment handed down from on high. Unless you are writing historical or contemporary fiction that takes place in a homogenous culture, can you think of a situation not of your own choosing that precludes a diverse set of characters?
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Would I need a reason to make him white?

Let's say the story take place mostly in the icy kingdoms of the far north. The default skin color for the natives would be white. [/quote]

This doesn't have to be true for a fantasy story. And even if it were the default, there's no reason the society has to be isolated. You can make both of those choices, but realize they're still just your choices, not any kind of natural law that requires you to make your story that way.

Your limits are the ones you've set for yourself, and I don't see much value in pretending otherwise.


EDIT: I hit the wrong button on my phone, and edited over the top of Svrtnsse's post instead of posting my own comment. Since this post has already been quoted, below, I'll leave it here, but I don't want to ascribe these words to Svrtnsse - Steerpike
 
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Mindfire

Istar
Let's say the story take place mostly in the icy kingdoms of the far north. The default skin color for the natives would be white.

This doesn't have to be true for a fantasy story.

On behalf of the Inuit, I'd like to say that it's not necessarily true in the real world either.

People of color can live anywhere.

tumblr_m1ip2weXBH1r8wfjko1_400.gif
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Holy crap, Svrtnsse - I was posting from my phone and instead of replying I edited my response into your post.

Sorry about that. Putting a note into it.
 

Mindfire

Istar
On a side note, Disney's Frozen would look so much less boring if it's art design was based on Inuit culture instead of that cliche Germanic stuff that makes up 90% of Disney animated films. They set The Princess and the Frog in New Orleans, but they can't set Frozen in North America?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
On a side note, Disney's Frozen would look so much less boring if it's art design was based on Inuit culture instead of that cliche Germanic stuff that makes up 90% of Disney animated films. They set The Princess and the Frog in New Orleans, but they can't set Frozen in North America?

Isn't it a take-off of a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale? I'm guessing that's the basis for the setting, but yeah it would have been cool in north America.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Steerpike edited my original post. - The second line of what you quoted is his, not mine.

I guess I should have stayed away from using the terms "black" and "white" for describing the people in my example. I was trying to make hypothetical example but I probably expressed myself rather clumsily. I apologize if I offended anyone. I was sticking to the terminology used in previous posts which probably was a bit thoughtless of me.


What I was getting at was this part:
You need internal consistency in a story. But if you're creating the fantasy world, then having a homogenous society where diversity doesn't work is a choice you made, not some commandment handed down from on high.

This is relevant to the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if you have a homogenous society of some kind you should motivate why someone or something breaks off from that. Just don't put something weird or strange in and expect the reader to accept it without questioning it.

And yes, it's the choice of the writer to make a homogenous society where diversity doesn't work. It's also their choice whether to put in someone or something that sticks out into that society and deal with the consequences. If diversity is a theme of the story it may be used to great effect. If it isn't maybe it's a can of worms best left closed?
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Holy crap, Svrtnsse - I was posting from my phone and instead of replying I edited my response into your post.

Sorry about that. Putting a note into it.

Ah, thanks. I got a bit upset at first. Then I got worried I'd somehow managed to be thoughtlessly offensive in some way I hadn't noticed.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Ah, thanks. I got a bit upset at first. Then I got worried I'd somehow managed to be thoughtlessly offensive in some way I hadn't noticed.

No, you can blame my ham-fisted attempts at typing on my phone. I can't see a way to get your original post back. My apologies.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I happen to think including diversity can be a distraction that weakens the writing if it's poorly done. It changes the way the character develops and implies a number of things about your setting, both of which need to be thought through. Of course the impact will depend on which characters you're talking about and their role in the story, but I don't think the impact should be ignored.

But I don't agree with the idea that it's a simple dichotomy between "it fits the story" and "it doesn't fit the story." As a writer, you choose what does or doesn't fit the story, and how you want to develop the various elements you incorporate as your story grows. If diversity doesn't fit the story, it's more than likely because it wasn't thought through.

But as I've said, I also think the same can be said for "low-to-no diversity." Homogenity isn't a realistic default; I think it often implies a shallow and underdeveloped setting.
 
I mentioned in another thread that my character Zuri was only French because her name foreshadowed her fate. No one had a problem with that. Why does it become a problem when a character is black for no reason?
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I mentioned in another thread that my character Zuri was only French because her name foreshadowed her fate. No one had a problem with that. Why does it become a problem when a character is black for no reason?

The way I see it it's based on what's the norm for the setting. In a contemporary real world setting it's not particularly far fetched to sat that a french person or a person of french decent could appear anywhere in the world. If your story was set in medieval Japan or Tolkien's Middle Earth a french person might raise some eyebrows and would require some explanation.
[[I'm assuming for the sake of the argument that France did not have a significant presence in medieval Japan]]

So, I guess it's as Steerpike pointed out earlier that it's about internal consistency. If it makes intuitive sense that a french person is a non-extraordinary occurrence in your setting you don't have to explain why they're there.
 
it's about internal consistency. If it makes intuitive sense that a french person is a non-extraordinary occurrence in your setting you don't have to explain why they're there.

Tying into other posts, that's as good a reason as any to just have one or two races in your story--your setting is meant to feel closed. But that does open questions about settings with strong ingrained sexism. To be certain, there are a lot of things you can do with sexism, but it often doesn't really seem to serve a purpose in the story, which makes me wonder why authors keep including it. (And if your setting isn't sexist, but every character in your story who actually accomplishes anything is male, I reserve the right to wonder why.)

Then again, I don't recall you using sexism in your setting, and Foster already mentioned that he has no sexism and several major women, so that strain of thought may not actually be going anywhere . . .
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Tying into other posts, that's as good a reason as any to just have one or two races in your story--your setting is meant to feel closed. But that does open questions about settings with strong ingrained sexism. To be certain, there are a lot of things you can do with sexism, but it often doesn't really seem to serve a purpose in the story, which makes me wonder why authors keep including it. (And if your setting isn't sexist, but every character in your story who actually accomplishes anything is male, I reserve the right to wonder why.)

Then again, I don't recall you using sexism in your setting, and Foster already mentioned that he has no sexism and several major women, so that strain of thought may not actually be going anywhere . . .

Good, thanks. I'm trying really hard to stay away from sexism - unless it would serve an actual story purpose, but that's a potato that's a bit too hot for me to pick up willingly just yet. I want my women to be real women, real characters, real people.
I'm also striving for a diverse racial setting. My humans come in all of the same colors as they do in the real world. My elves come in all the colors of the rainbow and then some. My anfylk are pretty much the same as the humans (except shorter and with furry legs). The dwarves, well, I haven't really figured them out completely yet.

I'm not arguing against diversity. I'm trying to argue against thoughtlessly adding diversity without reason - or without any other reason than to be politically correct.
Maybe I'm already preaching to the choir and I just haven't realized, or maybe there's a value in adding diversity for it's own sake that I just haven't seen.

Note that I agree with all the points Phil listed earlier about reasons for adding diversity.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
I mentioned in another thread that my character Zuri was only French because her name foreshadowed her fate. No one had a problem with that. Why does it become a problem when a character is black for no reason?
It sounds like you chose your character's nationality or ethnicity later in the process of creating her. I don't work like this. For me race and cultural background factor in very early in the character creation process. For example, while a different writer might initially conceive of their heroine as simply a female mage, I envision a beautiful West African Vodun priestess in a colorful gown and head-wrap. Part of that may have to do with my interest in representational politics, but then most of my characters enter my mind as visual images or drawings anyway. I'm a visual thinker by nature.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I started this mess. So, let me see what I can do to help wind this down... or make it worse! :eek:

I lost internet when this thing blew up and have been racing to catch up, so yeah, way behind. I kept seeing Brian and others (mostly Brian) asking the question, "Why is diversity important?" There are a few different answers to this, because it is not only important, it's becoming increasingly important every year.

1) Diversity really is good. I know this answer got blown off, but it's true. However, it's also a fast and easy answer, and doesn't really get to the heart of the "why."

2) Because readers want to see characters who reflect themselves and their lives. This is the money answer, and readers vote with their entertainment dollars. Readers, more and more, really are showing increasing interest in seeing a more diverse reflection of life in genre fiction - they want to see the single mother, the black dragon slayer, the space waitress, the gay squire. The world, and the reading public, is not made up of straight white farm boys and princes, and they're getting bored with reading about them. So why not add richness, depth, and realism to our fiction while attracting readers who are clamoring for just such diversity, because they want to see characters they can identify with?

3) Because these are the stories that don't get told. And here is the social justice answer - to be honest, it's my answer. Media has traditionally "white-washed" out most of the rest of society in favor of the perspective of the Straight White Male default. Things are getting better, slowly, as eyes open and we realize a more inclusive media is a good thing, but the fact that we still wrangle in discussions like this shows that we are, indeed, still far off from where we need to be as a genre as far as recognition of social issues goes. Within the umbrella terms of "diversity" and "equality" lie stories that until recently were only told in dark corners. We, as writers, have the opportunity to bring them into the light. Just think, we who so often bemoan the dearth of new stories, how many stories wait unheard? Dark stories, many of them, but also stories of hope, perseverance, and determination. And we don't even need to make social statements out of our plots or characters to tell them - in fact, it's really better if we don't. All we need is for our characters to say, "Here I am. I am a person, for better or worse." I think this is especially true for those of us who write YA, when young readers are desperately searching for characters who look like them, struggle like them, hurt like them. They don't need yet another heroic farm boy, they need an MC like them - be they awkward or brown or gay or gender questioning.

Hopefully that helped to answer the question. But, I think, maybe, the real question for a writer to ask isn't "Why is diversity important?" because in this day and age it is. The question to ask is, "Is diversity important to me?"
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I think A.E. hit the nail on the head. For the longest time and still to an extent, in the English-speaking world fantasy has been sort of the straight white male's game. For me, I don't think all straight white males need to be banned from the genre. That would be silly. But as audiences grow and more people fall in love with this genre, the more readers are going to be clamoring for characters who are more like them and their friends. This is something I disregarded myself for a long time, mainly because I just wasn't aware enough. Leaving America has made me more aware of other cultures and how they react to each other. While I still love my American heritage, I am fascinated by other cultures. I grew up reading Greek mythology, something completely foreign to my way of thinking. Then my interest expanded more globally as I got older.

I'm still very much interested in straight white male characters, if they're done well. But I'm also very interested in other kinds. Characters I wouldn't have even imagined. I'm always looking for fantasy that makes me think a different way or entertains me how I haven't been entertained before. I do believe there are many, many more stories to tell about European settings. Many good stories. Hell, I may even write one. But I want to expand further. I had a novel planned that covered witch finders in Africa, one about an old man's battles with yokai in Japan, and other stories yet to be dreamed up. I want to explore worlds different than my own. Unfamiliar places and faces. If others don't want to do that, then that's the path they've chosen. You can't strong-arm people into doing what you want.

People do care about this issue. It's not some fringe topic that only a small portion cares about. So if you're not going to include diversity, at least consider why others are doing it. There is a readership out there clamoring for something, anything that might represent some of the views that have been mentioned in this thread.

With that, I bid this thread adieu. :) Good luck to everyone with their writing, regardless of what you choose.
 
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