What Will You Stand For?

[Mindfire]

While there are several things I'd ideally keep as they are in my WIP, if it came down to it I'd negotiate with the publisher over certain things. My main character is aromantic, for example, a decision taken in part to distance myself from the train wreck that is The General's Secret and in part in reaction to the fact that everything has a romantic sub-plot. But if a publisher wanted me to include one, and would walk if I didn't, I'd do it, but try to do it my own way. Then if they, say, ask me to make all the main characters white or try to get me to make characters fit into more archetypal roles, the evil king, the comic relief, etc, I would have the negotiating capital to say no. I don't see why a publisher should be willing to back down on their requests if I'm not at least as willing to accommodate them; it's about compromise.

Some things, of course, are open to compromise. Most things are, in fact. The reason those particular things are on the list is because if the publisher wants to make those kinds of changes, they'd be better off buying a book that actually suits the niche they're looking for and I'd be better off keeping my integrity.

 

[Steerpike]

Interestingly, something like this played out with respect to a writer I was representing. Without getting into the details, a publisher wanted to buy the work but the author wanted to retain all kinds of control over the work and what happened to it. Ultimately, the publisher said they were walking away from it. The relationship between the publisher and writer was not only strained, but it put a big strain on the writer's relationship with his own agent, who was ready to dump him (remember an agent doesn't get paid until there is a sale, and here she was working for months on the writer's behalf only to have him scuttle the deal).

Ultimately, it was the threatened loss of the agent that caused the writer to change his mind and he agreed to just about everything the publisher wanted. It wasn't a huge deal - the advance was in the tens of thousands - but that was the agent's payday as well as the author's.

Luckily, I was brought in only to review the publishing contract, so I didn't have to be in the middle of all of that discussion.

I agree with what T.Allen.Smith said, above, that if it is really important to the writer, the writer should stick to his guns. I do, however, want people to have a realistic view of what going through a traditional publisher is. It is a joint business venture, essentially, between the publisher and author and, if the author is lucky enough to have one, the agent.

In this day and age, if you really want full control I think self-publication is your best bet.

 

[TWErvin2]

As has been said, if you've got a big list of things you won't budge on, including cover content, odds are you're wasting your time and the publisher's time by even submitting to them.

 

[Mindfire]

As has been said, if you've got a big list of things you won't budge on, including cover content, odds are you're wasting your time and the publisher's time by even submitting to them.

Which brings me back to the question: will a publisher really drop you simply because you object to whitewashing? Because if so, I may need to revise my opinion on human decency.

 

[Steerpike]

No need to over-dramatize. We are just pointing out that publishers have their own ideas and experiences about selling books. If you want to dictate the cover or retain total control over other aspects, self publish. I don't remember anyone saying they'd white wash it, and a cursory examination of the book shelves at a store will show that is not the case.

 

[Mindfire]

No need to over-dramatize. We are just pointing out that publishers have their own ideas and experiences about selling books. If you want to dictate the cover or retain total control over other aspects, self publish. I don't remember anyone saying they'd white wash it, and a cursory examination of the book shelves at a store will show that is not the case.

Well this isn't an issue of control so much it is an issue of "I really hate whitewashing."

 

[Zero Angel]

While there are several things I'd ideally keep as they are in my WIP, if it came down to it I'd negotiate with the publisher over certain things. My main character is aromantic, for example, a decision taken in part to distance myself from the train wreck that is The General's Secret and in part in reaction to the fact that everything has a romantic sub-plot. But if a publisher wanted me to include one, and would walk if I didn't, I'd do it, but try to do it my own way. Then if they, say, ask me to make all the main characters white or try to get me to make characters fit into more archetypal roles, the evil king, the comic relief, etc, I would have the negotiating capital to say no. I don't see why a publisher should be willing to back down on their requests if I'm not at least as willing to accommodate them; it's about compromise.

This reminds me of this: Love Song (Sara Bareilles song) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Mindfire: That article you posted was scary. I had no idea people were still doing this. In my books, I rarely speak of race (other than dwarves/minotaurs/etc), and only mention skin-complexion when it is drastic. I hope that readers will imagine the characters however they like to, although in films I am sure they will be portrayed lighter probably.

Interestingly, I had no idea Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea Quartet concerned people with dark skin until she criticized the Earthsea TV miniseries for having white actors and actresses. I read the stories when I was younger and must have just ignored this fact.

Anyway, there are many things that I would not want to change about my books, and that is surely part of the reason why I have gone the route of self-publishing. I never really thought about things they would change in my books to make them more marketable, but now that I read your post, I would be VERY concerned about MANY issues and ideas in my books.

 

[Steerpike]

Well this isn't an issue of control so much it is an issue of "I really hate whitewashing."

So do I.

/10char

 

[Jabrosky]

It would be impossible for any publisher to get away with whitewashing my WIP with cover art even if they wanted to. Not only do I explicitly mention my heroine's dark brown complexion and other African (or "Negroid") physical features in the very first chapter, but her race actually affects how the antagonists treat her. No reader could ignore the contrast between a whitewashed portrayal of my character on the cover and how the text actually describes her.

Then again, as I said earlier in this thread, I plan to go the self-published route with my story.

 

[Steerpike]

Zero Angel, of you look at the body of fantasy literature, I'm not sure anything is off limits.

 

[Zero Angel]

It would be impossible for any publisher to get away with whitewashing my WIP with cover art even if they wanted to. Not only do I explicitly mention my heroine's dark brown complexion and other African (or "Negroid") physical features in the very first chapter, but her race actually affects how the antagonists treat her. No reader could ignore the contrast between a whitewashed portrayal of my character on the cover and how the text actually describes her.

Then again, as I said earlier in this thread, I plan to go the self-published route with my story.

Did you read Mindfire's link to that article? It gave several examples of just this thing.

 

[Zero Angel]

Zero Angel, of you look at the body of fantasy literature, I'm not sure anything is off limits.

I assume you mean off-limits to getting published and out there? I agree, but I also think nothing is off-limits to being changed in the eyes of the publishers. I think it is important to have a working relationship with your publisher/agent/publicist, but at the end of the day, I cannot imagine giving up control.

Especially already having the entire series planned out -_- if a publisher came in and said, well you are going to need to change this or else we're done and that thing they want changed sets up something six books down the line...well I think it would be time to put a fork in the relationship because yes, we would be done.

But that being said, do publishers give "ultimatums" or do they give suggestions and workarounds and things of that nature? I don't have any experience, but I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Steerpike]

Did you read Mindfire's link to that article? It gave several examples of just this thing.

I missed the link; which thread is it in? This one?

I've read a lot of fantasy over the years with so many varied topics, including so many that people might consider taboo, that I have a hard time thinking of something that is completely out of bounds. Individual publishers might have their own issues, but I can't think of anything that couldn't be placed somewhere.

 

[Steerpike]

But that being said, do publishers give "ultimatums" or do they give suggestions and workarounds and things of that nature? I don't have any experience, but I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I suppose it depends on the publisher. The editors, or even an agent, might make suggestions. It is up to the author whether to accept them or not, and if the author does not it is up to the publisher to decide whether they want to proceed. If they felt strongly about it, I can see publishers walking away from the deal just as an author who feels strongly might.

 

[Mindfire]

I missed the link; which thread is it in? This one?

I've read a lot of fantasy over the years with so many varied topics, including so many that people might consider taboo, that I have a hard time thinking of something that is completely out of bounds. Individual publishers might have their own issues, but I can't think of anything that couldn't be placed somewhere.

Here you go. I think my original link was far too subtle.

Cover Matters: On Whitewashing | The Book Smugglers

 

[Zero Angel]

Here you go. I think my original link was far too subtle.

Cover Matters: On Whitewashing | The Book Smugglers

Ninja'd!

 

[Steerpike]

Ah, got it. Thanks.

I expect part of the problem lies in the fact that marketing departments and cover illustrators don't read the books. It wouldn't surprise me if they default to light-skinned people unless they are told otherwise.

I'd be interested to know the effect on sales, just from an academic point of view. I went to a book store in St. Louis once, looking for books by Octavia Butler (who was excellent), and after asking the clerk for them I found that they were hidden away in a tiny section for "African American Literature" that was hard to see. The clerk's explanation was that they looked like African American Literature from the covers (there were black people on them). I suspect the marketing arms of the major publishers think about this sort of thing. It doesn't make them right to change the covers just for the sake of an imagined target demographic, however. I convinced the clerk at the store in St. Louis to move Butler to Science Fiction, where she belonged (along with Delany, who was in African American Literature as well). Ideally, I would eliminate book categories based on race in the bookstores and treat all works the same. But, at the same time, the reality is that this store did have a few people coming in looking specifically for African American Literature (if you can define that), and that's why they had the section, though it was hardly noticeable in passing.

I guess it can work the other way as well - witness the cry over a more pale-skinned Cleopatra, even though Cleopatra was not of Egyptian descent by blood.

 

[Zero Angel]

I'd be interested to know the effect on sales, just from an academic point of view. I went to a book store in St. Louis once, looking for books by Octavia Butler (who was excellent), and after asking the clerk for them I found that they were hidden away in a tiny section for "African American Literature" that was hard to see. The clerk's explanation was that they looked like African American Literature from the covers (there were black people on them). I suspect the marketing arms of the major publishers think about this sort of thing. It doesn't make them right to change the covers just for the sake of an imagined target demographic, however. I convinced the clerk at the store in St. Louis to move Butler to Science Fiction, where she belonged (along with Delany, who was in African American Literature as well). Ideally, I would eliminate book categories based on race in the bookstores and treat all works the same. But, at the same time, the reality is that this store did have a few people coming in looking specifically for African American Literature (if you can define that), and that's why they had the section, though it was hardly noticeable in passing.

In general, maybe not your specific example, I would think that it would *help* her sales, not hurt them. And "ideally" from the publisher's standpoint it would be categorized under both "African American Literature" and "Fantasy & Science Fiction".

 

[Steerpike]

In general, maybe not your specific example, I would think that it would *help* her sales, not hurt them. And "ideally" from the publisher's standpoint it would be categorized under both "African American Literature" and "Fantasy & Science Fiction".

In this store, it hurt her simply because the number of people who browsed the African American section was quite small compared to the number of people browsing Science Fiction and Fantasy. Putting a few copies in each section would probably be best, true.

 

[Mindfire]

I guess it can work the other way as well - witness the cry over a more pale-skinned Cleopatra, even though Cleopatra was not of Egyptian descent by blood.

Actually that book cover was Nefertiti, who was Egyptian.