I wasn't talking about that book cover.
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What Will You Stand For?
- Thread starter Mindfire
- Start date
I wasn't talking about that book cover.
- Thread starter
- #42
Mindfire
Istar
And actually Cleopatra did have some black African descent; she was well and truly mixed race.
Jabrosky
Banned
In light of those findings, perhaps someone like Rihanna or Beyonce (both socially "black" but obviously of multiracial background) would work better as an actress for Cleopatra.
Kit
Maester
Ok, just read the entire linked article, along with one that it referenced:
Red Sari: An Analysis of S. Asian and Diaspora Book Covers - Red Sari
regarding Asian authors/books- since my WIP is set in China.
Appalling.
I knew about whitewashing, and I'm always complaining about the way publishers make all female characters on fantasy covers into anorexic bimboes with three pounds of makeup, giant breast implants and wearing S&M fetish costumes. I also knew that authors have no control over the covers. But it's even worse than I knew.
This deals the final death blow to whatever small thought I ever had about submitting (all implications intended) to a traditional publisher.
If I want to just write for money, I can do all sorts of commercial work- on purpose, knowing that this is just a job I'm cranking out in return for a paycheck. Boss tells me what to write and I'll write it. Fine, whatever.
If you had a crystal ball and told me that if I take my book to a traditional publisher I'll be as successful as Rowlings, but I'd have to watch them do these things to my story and characters.... I'd really have to sit down and think that over. Truly, offer me MILLIONS of dollars... I'd have to really think that over.
Red Sari: An Analysis of S. Asian and Diaspora Book Covers - Red Sari
regarding Asian authors/books- since my WIP is set in China.
Appalling.
I knew about whitewashing, and I'm always complaining about the way publishers make all female characters on fantasy covers into anorexic bimboes with three pounds of makeup, giant breast implants and wearing S&M fetish costumes. I also knew that authors have no control over the covers. But it's even worse than I knew.
This deals the final death blow to whatever small thought I ever had about submitting (all implications intended) to a traditional publisher.
If I want to just write for money, I can do all sorts of commercial work- on purpose, knowing that this is just a job I'm cranking out in return for a paycheck. Boss tells me what to write and I'll write it. Fine, whatever.
If you had a crystal ball and told me that if I take my book to a traditional publisher I'll be as successful as Rowlings, but I'd have to watch them do these things to my story and characters.... I'd really have to sit down and think that over. Truly, offer me MILLIONS of dollars... I'd have to really think that over.
Amanita
Maester
Seriously, what's the point of getting your story published if this not the case? Well, at least as long as it's not mainly about the money or about getting something published to get your name out.
I could see myself change things if editors spotted problematic things I didn't notice, such as boring magic discussions (which I try to get rid of before anyway but still), making the magic more visiual, cutting controversial background stories for some characters, cutting minor subplots that might put certain people of etc.
I don't see the point in altering major themes and plotlines however. At least as long as they're not giving me really good reasons for this. I might understand those reasons but I may not. Like Mindfire said, if they don't want my story, they should do without it but I don't want anything out there which has my name on of it, bus has nothing to with my beliefs and interests.
Probably, publishing is not for me really.
I'm really shocked by the fact that characters of different racial background still seem to be such an issue. Are there really so many white people who wouldn't buy a book because there's a person with dark skin on the cover? I really can't understand this way of thinking.
The Dark One
Auror
I haven't read the entire thread so sorry if I'm repeating stuff said earlier...
It's important to remember that there is only one reason a publisher will publish your book...because they think they can make money from it. If they don't think it's quite right (ie, right enough to crowbar cash from the pockets of punters) they will require changes. Changes devised by publishing professionals who (think they) know what sells. If you don't agree to the changes they won't publish your book.
If you want more control, approach small niche publishers. They are far more likely to believe in your total vision. That was my experience with both my published books - the biggest cut I had to make was to reduce a 230k ms to 192k for publication, just to reduce print costs. Definitely improved the book though.
It's important to remember that there is only one reason a publisher will publish your book...because they think they can make money from it. If they don't think it's quite right (ie, right enough to crowbar cash from the pockets of punters) they will require changes. Changes devised by publishing professionals who (think they) know what sells. If you don't agree to the changes they won't publish your book.
If you want more control, approach small niche publishers. They are far more likely to believe in your total vision. That was my experience with both my published books - the biggest cut I had to make was to reduce a 230k ms to 192k for publication, just to reduce print costs. Definitely improved the book though.
This is all purely speculative and there its no hard evidence to support the contention. It seems to me the best evidence we have are contemporary depictions, and those present a fairly clear picture. Those arguing for an African heritage are reduced to arguing that contemporary depictions were intentionally misleading - again with no evidence. It's not very good science.
Those aren't "findings, " but rather speculation about possibilities. You are in the sciences; you should know this. As the original author indicates, it is quite possible she had no Egyptian blood. In fact, the weight of the evidence supports it. When, in science, do you accept a proposition that has no evidence behind it? You are making my case about reverse white washing.
I read somewhere that some people in the Ptolemy line were blonde or golden haired (not many). So one could just as easily speculate that Cleopatra had those features - only there is no evidence to back that up either. Casting Beyonce to play her wouldn't be any more historically supported than casting Gwyneth Paltrow.
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SeverinR
Vala
Imo some changes are expected, and negotiable.
PC changes just to be PC would take alot for me to agree.
Gratuitous sex scenes would be another questionable hard sell.(one that does not advance the story, just adds sex)
I might be ok with some changes as long as it doesn't change the major characteristics of the book.
PC changes just to be PC would take alot for me to agree.
Gratuitous sex scenes would be another questionable hard sell.(one that does not advance the story, just adds sex)
I might be ok with some changes as long as it doesn't change the major characteristics of the book.
Anders Ämting
Auror
I suppose I would be reluctant to alter the characterization and themes of the story. Not saying I would outright refuse, but they'd have to give me a really good reason. Plot changes I might be okay with, as long as it's not stupid changes, or changes for stupid reasons.
Jabrosky
Banned
Actually some of the comments in Chilari's link allude to recent findings that a skull possibly belonging to Cleopatra's half-sister Arsinoe showed a mixture of "European" and "African" characteristics. Now, to be fair, there is some doubt that the skull really belongs to anyone from Cleopatra's family, and of course Cleopatra and Arsinoe probably had different mothers, but it could suggest that the Ptolemies were more open to interracial mixing than previously believed
Yes, it is possible. But the evidence to support these lines of thought are possibilities. So far, I haven't found anything persuasive enough to convince me that contemporary busts and coinage were purposefully misrepresenting her appearance. That may change if new evidence comes to light, but so far I don't see it (and when it comes to something like skin tone, I doubt we'll ever know).
I don't care if she was pale, dark-skinned, or if she swam over from China and was of Asian ancestry. I just don't like to see history manipulated to fit modern political concerns, that's all.
TWErvin2
Auror
The key, I think, would be to research the publisher before you submit your work to them for consideration. While there is give and take in the editing process, the managing editor is the final say on what is produced/published by that house. The publisher is the one that generally hires/commissions the artist and approves the final cover art and titlework. While the author may have some input, the publisher is the one who has the final say on the work's title.
Successful publishers have been doing this for a while and have experience. If they didn't, they would be out of business. If you're unwilling to cede some control over the content of your novel, don't waste your time (and the publisher's time) submitting. You're approaching them. The publisher isn't approaching you. If they were, you'd have more leverage.
You're not going to submit your novel, have them accept it, and the publisher simply does a proof reading to catch typos, commission an artist which you will approve, including the final cover art version and titlework, and publish the piece. If they do, what value are they adding to the quality of the piece? Sorry, the draft you sent them isn't that good. Heck, three years from now, if you keep writing, you'll look back at your novel (if published or even if not published) and see how it could have been written better. What a publisher is trying to do is improve a work, make it more marketable, a better read, and earn a profit, which will be shared with the writer through an advance and royalties.
In addition to editing, a publisher will open doors and access to readers--a potentially wider audience.
As was said earlier, niche or smaller publishers may be a better fit, especially if more control is desired. Again, research before submitting to a particular publisher. Read samples/novels. Gauge the quality and content, because not all publishers are equal.
Successful publishers have been doing this for a while and have experience. If they didn't, they would be out of business. If you're unwilling to cede some control over the content of your novel, don't waste your time (and the publisher's time) submitting. You're approaching them. The publisher isn't approaching you. If they were, you'd have more leverage.
You're not going to submit your novel, have them accept it, and the publisher simply does a proof reading to catch typos, commission an artist which you will approve, including the final cover art version and titlework, and publish the piece. If they do, what value are they adding to the quality of the piece? Sorry, the draft you sent them isn't that good. Heck, three years from now, if you keep writing, you'll look back at your novel (if published or even if not published) and see how it could have been written better. What a publisher is trying to do is improve a work, make it more marketable, a better read, and earn a profit, which will be shared with the writer through an advance and royalties.
In addition to editing, a publisher will open doors and access to readers--a potentially wider audience.
As was said earlier, niche or smaller publishers may be a better fit, especially if more control is desired. Again, research before submitting to a particular publisher. Read samples/novels. Gauge the quality and content, because not all publishers are equal.
- Thread starter
- #55
Mindfire
Istar
Regardless, I think "reverse" whitewashing is a bit less harmful and far less common than regular whitewashing. But let's try not to derail the thread by starting another debate about Egyptians.
We're not, she wasn't Egyptian
(Seriously, though, back to the topic at hand).
Marketing people are going to want to use cover art that sells. I don't know that publishers are going to ask you to change the ethnicity of characters. As I've said before, I know someone who was asked to play up a love interest and remove a death from her Fantasy novel, because the publisher wanted to market it as Romance. She agreed and inked a three-book deal.
Realistically, I suppose it depends on what the publisher is offering. I don't care what I submitted to a publisher, if they came at me like they did Stephanie Meyer, waving $3/4 of a million dollars around, I'd say "What do you want changed and when do you want it?" Then, if the publisher's bet paid off and the book sold like crazy, I'd spend the rest of my life writing whatever the hell I wanted.
Okay, certainly I am no authority on publishing, but I want to weigh-in here. I've written, a LOT! And if I've learned anything, it's that there's always another story. I've submitted my 7th novel for representation twice, with only a request for a partial, so again, I'm only one aspiring author, trying my best. BUT, if an agent told me tomorrow, "We want this novel, but we are concerned about your lack of religion, we want you to make your werewolves more frightening, and we need to see more/less sex to pander to our readers." I'd make the changes, do it my way, and see whether it was enough to please the person I'm hoping wants me as their partner (for the price of 15%).
Imagine it was another business, oh wait, I can, because I have another business. I run it alone, and let's be frank, it's in the red. I owe my husband about $3500 for his investment. Well, say tomorrow, I have someone who wants to be my partner. "I really like what you're doing Caged Maiden, but I'm a guy, and hate the name of your business, let's change it to A Tale of Two Tailors."
If I want a partner, I'm guaranteeing, he'll want more than 15%, and also want some things changed. Right now, I sell to mostly women, cater to women with unique body shapes who have a hard time finding garments, and definitely focus on people who want unique costumes. Do I abandon all that I have built for the sake of a partner who will help me run my small business? I'd have to consider whether the changes are ones I can live with, and maybe even embrace.
Writing is not so different. Perhaps my original vision for my books is creative genius, perhaps it is lack-luster and already done. I'm not the authority, and I can only benefit from a partnership with an agent.
For everyone out there who has a novel they love, I'd recommend very carefully making demands. If you are in love with your book, then reserve it, put it on the back burner until you have a name and reputation, then haul it out in all its glory when it can stand on its own. Think about writing a stand alone novel that will appeal to an agent, if you don't think you can alter your first novel. No one says you have to make sacrifices you aren't comfortable making. But to think you're special (not pointing at any one person, but at all artists aspiring to be noticed), that you somehow are more worthy of being taken from the amusement park line and being seated on the hot new ride first, well, that's just silly to me.
We are all in the same situation, trying to get our work out there. An agent is taking a chance on me, the least I can do is give them their 15% of influence over my work. That's how partnerships work.
I have some pretty controversial subjects in my books, and I could understand an agent not wanting to stamp their name all over those issues on the first attempt. So would I make changes? You betcha. But I'd hope that as our relationship builds, and we both experience success from our partnership, we can grow in mutual respect and trust each others' decisions. They're not asking for the keys to my car, they're asking me to drive a little slower for safety reasons.
I wish everyone who wanted to be an artist had a market awaiting them, but I just don't think that is the case. Agents are trying their best to help people and make a profit for themselves. I'd recommend testing the water with something you're not so attached to if you feel you can't break into the market with something you want to remain unchanged.
Imagine it was another business, oh wait, I can, because I have another business. I run it alone, and let's be frank, it's in the red. I owe my husband about $3500 for his investment. Well, say tomorrow, I have someone who wants to be my partner. "I really like what you're doing Caged Maiden, but I'm a guy, and hate the name of your business, let's change it to A Tale of Two Tailors."
If I want a partner, I'm guaranteeing, he'll want more than 15%, and also want some things changed. Right now, I sell to mostly women, cater to women with unique body shapes who have a hard time finding garments, and definitely focus on people who want unique costumes. Do I abandon all that I have built for the sake of a partner who will help me run my small business? I'd have to consider whether the changes are ones I can live with, and maybe even embrace.
Writing is not so different. Perhaps my original vision for my books is creative genius, perhaps it is lack-luster and already done. I'm not the authority, and I can only benefit from a partnership with an agent.
For everyone out there who has a novel they love, I'd recommend very carefully making demands. If you are in love with your book, then reserve it, put it on the back burner until you have a name and reputation, then haul it out in all its glory when it can stand on its own. Think about writing a stand alone novel that will appeal to an agent, if you don't think you can alter your first novel. No one says you have to make sacrifices you aren't comfortable making. But to think you're special (not pointing at any one person, but at all artists aspiring to be noticed), that you somehow are more worthy of being taken from the amusement park line and being seated on the hot new ride first, well, that's just silly to me.
We are all in the same situation, trying to get our work out there. An agent is taking a chance on me, the least I can do is give them their 15% of influence over my work. That's how partnerships work.
I have some pretty controversial subjects in my books, and I could understand an agent not wanting to stamp their name all over those issues on the first attempt. So would I make changes? You betcha. But I'd hope that as our relationship builds, and we both experience success from our partnership, we can grow in mutual respect and trust each others' decisions. They're not asking for the keys to my car, they're asking me to drive a little slower for safety reasons.
I wish everyone who wanted to be an artist had a market awaiting them, but I just don't think that is the case. Agents are trying their best to help people and make a profit for themselves. I'd recommend testing the water with something you're not so attached to if you feel you can't break into the market with something you want to remain unchanged.
Amanita
Maester
I'm starting to wonder if the excess of boring and cliche fantasy (and romance) novels isn't the fault of the authors but of publishing houses who don't think anything else will sell...
Kit
Maester
(We don't have a "thumbs up" or "ditto" icon on this forum; this was the closest I could get!)
I like this idea.
