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Why does "Publishing" have to equal "Revenue"?

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
The only real issue between the two is managing expectations. I know people who have self-published eBooks who, at least early on, were pretty sure that making the work available and maybe putting in a little bit of marketing effort was going to translate into a success story (financially). The truth is, the likelihood of that happening is relatively small. The same goes for podcasts of works and the like, which some authors do. It is not a bad idea by any means, and as part of an overall marketing strategy it may be helpful, but self-published writers have to remain cognizant of the fact that in all likelihood an ultimate success will be a lengthy process and may be modest at best. I've seen over-inflated expectations have a really negative impact on writers and other artists when they don't play out.

I'm sorry, I feel almost honor bound to respond, and I'm not even sure why. You're mostly right. I just think there's a critical point which needs to be raised. I think most authors just don't know how to do it well.

Publishing Audio and Video on the web is a completely different medium. It needs to be approached with a completely different style in order to be effective. When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results.

The problem is that the reach of a simple web posting is extremely limited, and you need to develop clever ways to distribute your website online. Even when done correctly, it typically takes about a year of dedicated effort for a blog or a website or anything online to build its viewership enough to be considered successful.

I imagine most people just don't realize how much it takes.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I imagine most people just don't realize how much it takes.

I suspect that is true. But even if you manage to get viewership up on your blog or web site, will that necessarily translate into eBook sales? Some people seem to get at least a moderate level of exposure through free offerings, but have a hard time translating that into sales for non-free items.

You are right - people do not know how to do it, or how long it will take. I think they tend to get disappointed very quickly when they have the mistaken impression that things will develop quickly and with minimal effort. A lot of creative people have that view, at least early on, whether they be writers, artists, inventors, or what have you. And they don't always appreciate the reality check if you try to give it to them in advance. My hope is that people who are serious will be vigorous in their attempts to market their work, increase their readership, or what have you, but will also be realistic in their expectations so they do not suffer a huge let down.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I suspect that is true. But even if you manage to get viewership up on your blog or web site, will that necessarily translate into eBook sales? Some people seem to get at least a moderate level of exposure through free offerings, but have a hard time translating that into sales for non-free items.

There's too many factors involved to give an answer that applies across the board. Quality, target audience, competition... a lot of people still don't read ebooks at all. But if marketed correctly the ebook should sell about as well or a little more than what these factors warrant. Which may or may not be very much at all. But especially if your real goal is to sell your work to a Publisher, I'm going to say that it can be a very viable option if you know what you're doing. But you're right, if you don't know what you're doing or what to expect you will be sorely disappointed.
 
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Here's how I think about this:

1) If you're writing (actively, doing it regularly, not daydreaming about maybe someday doing it), then you're a writer. If you publish that work, you're a published writer. Some folks use the term "author" for that. Doesn't matter if your book is free or if your book costs $1000 a copy. You're a published author.

2) If your writing is making a substantial portion of your income, then you are a professional writer. You're not a professional anything unless you are making it your profession - i.e. making a living, or at least a chunk of a living, from that work.

You can be an author without being a professional. You can be an author without making a dime.

And lastly, even for a professional writer, there are going to be some times and some cases where it is VERY valuable to give away work. I haven't read any of Michael's books (sorry, Michael! they're on The List!), but I have downloaded his short story now, and maybe that will get be hot to read all his books next.

Kris Rusch just had a book go free recently (from Sourcebooks, incidentally one of the more progressive of the well known publishers out there, IMHO). Being free catapulted the book into the #1 slot in fantasy/SF/paranormal romance, knocking out *everything* else, and it stuck in the top 20 for quite a long time after it was put back to full price. They gave away thousands of books and made TENS of thousands of dollars on that deal. Not counting all of her other work - including a bucketload of self published stuff - that also saw very strong increased sales and probably will for quite a while, as a trickledown effect.

Another indie writer I know, Tara Maya, used the method of putting her book free on Smashwords - which then put it free on B&N - which coupled with a bunch of people pressing the "lower price elsewhere" button on Amazon ended up with Amazon making the book free too (they don't always do this: generally, they just do it on books they think have potential, especially by writers with multiple other books so they can see additional revenue from other book sales). Tara's free book was first in a trilogy. She's giving away thousands and thousands of copies - I think over 10k now - and guess how sales of her other books are doing? Guess what's going to happen to the sales of those other books early next year during the big rush of post X-mas ebook sales?

Yeah, there are absolutely times when going free can be a boon, even to the professional writer.
 

Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
You're describing loss-leaders. The first book of a series, or a promotional short-term giveaway, are all meant to stimulate other sales. The bet by the person offering the free work is that it will lead to increased revenue in the long-term.

I certainly agree that it is good to give away work - especially as it helps combat the niggardly "You must pay me for every word!" greediness that I've seen happen to authors before.

Also, to Devor, about this:

Publishing Audio and Video on the web is a completely different medium. It needs to be approached with a completely different style in order to be effective. When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results.

I'd be interested in finding out what kind of results you mean. I hope you didn't mean to imply that a properly done Audio and video publishing is a sure-fire way to financial success.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I'd be interested in finding out what kind of results you mean. I hope you didn't mean to imply that a properly done Audio and video publishing is a sure-fire way to financial success.

I mean that it's a business, just like anything else that brings in money. And if you look at the elements of your business - product, marketing, customer base, competition, distribution, innovation, work inputs, etc. - then it should be a little bit predictable how well you will do. And if you're capable of doing what it takes to improve those factors, then yes you are likely to achieve some measure of success. If you're not capable of improving your product and distribution, or of widening your target audience sufficiently (or else in reaching a large percentage of your "niche" market), then you will (rather predictably) fail.
 

Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
Certainly, but the same could be said of any endeavor - if you can get all the parts right, you should be successful. Can realistically expect to be successful, even. In that way, then, audio publishing is the same as print. Despite the fact that different styles and approaches are necessary for each, the statement: "When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results" holds true for both (and everything else).

The problem being that 'doing it correctly' is the hard part in the first place. :)
 
It's my understanding that, if you let Amazon know that it's available for free somewhere else, they'll mark it as free as well (this is based on the recounting of an author's experience I heard on Dead Robots Society, so consider it second-hand information). Also, you apparently CAN list it for free if you release the book through a publisher (check out this very interesting blog post).

No this is not true...they MAY make it free - but there are many people who have tried this approach and their books never went free. I've personally used this on a few occassions and was able to get mine free but a lot of that (I suspect) is because I had good sales volume and other books that people could buy and Amazon could make money on. The post you have is from 2009 which is like a decade in e-book years.

But dude... while Amazon is certainly the biggest "source" for e-books, they aren't the only way to distribute your work. In fact, the sheer size and scope of their offerings makes it hard for people to actually discover your work unless its supported by some other marketing efforts. There's also openlibrary.org, gutenburg.org, manybooks.net... AND (my personal favorite) your own blog/website. And what about the Nook? There's lots of free books on the B&N website but I'm not sure about their process.

They also do not offer the option to "post for free" - Again they may or may not price match - My Viscount and the Witch short story is free on Amazon but is $0.99 (The cheapest I can make it) for nook.'

We're blazing new trails of distribution and access here. It may take some digging and some work (and almost certainly will), but getting your book out there for free is totally do-able.

Very easy via smashwords - they offer it for free - but not many books are sold through there. They do populate to Kobo and ibookstore so using them you can get free books to those platforms.
 
The term "hobbyist" is so dismissive, especially when presented as the opposite of "professional." And I think a lot of us get wrapped up in wanting to be professional, to be the guy or girl in the room who has nothing to prove. And being presented (again and again) with the idea that the only credible proof of being a professional is to make money on our writing sends a very limiting - and potentially demoralizing - message.

That's interesting...in my head I don't associate any "negative" attributes to the word "hobbyist". To me its a matter of motivation. A hobby is something you do just because you love to do it. You aren't doing it to make money - you're doing it because you find it an enjoyable way to spend your time. A "profession" is something you do to make money (again my defintion) so in this case a garbage man and a brain surgeon are each practicing a profession.

Now to be "professional" has to do with how much care you take in your work. And you can do apply a professional mindset to your hobby. If I'm making bird houses for fun I might not care whether everything lines up properly. If I make a bird house for fun and do so profesionally then the house will be of very high quality when I'm finished. If I make a bird house to sell - I better ensure it is of high quality - but also have to consider "business aspects" such as the cost of materials, the price of labor, what the market will bear. It may be that I can't produce the bird house at a price that people can afford to buy and if that is the case...and I'm happy just producing them "for myself" then that's fine - but I'm doing a hobby not running a business.

I say again... I'm not against making money of our writing. I WANT to make money off my writing, and I congratulate and admire those craftsmen and craftswomen who have achieved that goal.

What I'm hoping to convey to those of us who HAVEN'T yet made that leap is that "professional" does not mean "paid". A profession implies some endeavor that entails a high degree of skill and craft to carry out. Garbage Collector is not a profession (under this definition)... Brain Surgeon is. And Writer/Author is very definitely a profession, requiring a high degree of skill and awareness to execute effectively. I want to make sure that those of us who are still in the formative stages of our careers don't let preconceptions of what a professional is and what publishing entails become a demoralizing goad.

The idea of someone writing an excellent story and then waiting years (if ever) to share it with the world because the "only way to be professional is to get a publisher to sell it", breaks my heart. I say get it out there, receive the accolades and criticism that will feed and nurture that creative muse. If you're that good, you'll be paid soon enough. And if you're NOT that good, then getting it out there will help get you there.

No disagreement there.
 
The general tone (until I derailed it with semantics... again mea culpa) seemed to be that my assumption is incorrect. That it's all well and good to "write for fun" and give away your work, but you're not a "real author" until you've been paid, no matter how many downloads you have.

A "real author" is a slippery slope again because it is a very subjective term. In the simplist of terms...if you have an audience (whether or not they pay for you work) then you are a "real author". But I could also make the statment that someone could write a masterpiece that is "just for themselves" and has no audience...how is that not "real".

I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting that a writer ALWAYS give EVERYTHING away for free FOREVER. I'm suggesting that, by circulating your work and promoting it effectively, you will acquire a following and gain vital insight in writing and publication (certainly more than you will waiting for an agent to read your query letter). To put it another way, I'm saying that investing some "sweat-equity" into your career up front - by writing awesome books and getting them out there in some form or another for free - is a viable and proven means to attaining a writing career.

You are actually combining two things here...getting your work out there without an agent/publisher...in other words self-publishing. Then you mentioned "for free". Why combine the two? Why can't you self-publish AND charge? If you want to use free as a promotional aspect -that's fine but I don't why you are linking the two as one thing.

Respectfully, I direct your attentions to the websites of the following authors who make their living off their writing:
Scott Sigler: ScottSigler.com
Tee Morris: TeeMorris.com
Phillipa Ballantine: Philippa Ballantine
J.C. Hutchins J.C. Hutchins: New Fiction And Author Updates |

I know Tee personally and he doesn't make his living off of writing - he has a day job. We have talked on several occassions how much he would LIKE to make a living from writing. Yes he is published professionally and is therefore paid for his writing - but it doesn't pay all the bills. I believe Scott is indeed solely supported by his writing - but he has also made the NYT bestseller list. Pip is married to Tee and I don't think she has a day job. Originally it may have been a visa issue. Now that she is married it may be that she stays home to raise Tee's daughter - I don't know but I suspect based on her # of titles and their sales volumes (as evidenced by Amazon rankings) she probably could not support herself solely on her writing - but I confess I don't have the details and may be wrong about this. J.C. Hutchins...he jumped from podcasting to get a book deal with St. Martins. As I recall they published one of a trilogy but it didn't do well enough for them to produce the other two - again I would venture he has some day job supporting him.

Again... authors who are making a living getting paid as authors. Every one of them began podcasting their work as serialized audiobooks offered for free, built an audience, and carved their niche in the speculative fiction market.

Actually most authors, don't "make a living" getting paid as authors. They make "sublimental income" and most still have their day jobs. For the record, I do make my living from my writing. For years we lived on a single income (my wife's) as she made six-figures and we could live well on that. Once my income from writing exceeded hers...and after we had two years of income saved up in the bank...we felt comfortable having her quit her job so now we live solely off my writing. Also for the record - this is not the "norm" in the world of writing. Many writers - even those with multiple titles don't make enough to cover all their bills (especially if you live in an expensive part of the country as I do). Some move to remote areas that have low cost of living so that they can live from their writing income. In general this is one one of the more difficult professions to make a living wage from.

Now if that's not your scene, I get that. It's not for everyone. But if you're reading this and feeling intimidated by the conventional publishing path, I'm here to tell you... there ARE alternatives. ;)

Of course there are...I'm not sure why you think that people are not aware of this fact. You can podcast, you can self-publish, you can use a small press, or you can go the traditional route. There are many options these days and no single one is right - you just have to align your goals with the avenues available.
 
Mike Sullivan's contract with Orbit Books is not the last contract he'll ever have.

Well since I can't make that statement...how can you? If my sales are no good why would Orbit offer me another? Even if my sales are good - what if they hate the next book I write? Or the one after that? If Orbit won't publish me why would another publisher step up to the plate? Getting one contract is no guarantee of more. Each project is looked upon individually. Yes if you sell well your chances are "better" but more often than not authors fail to live up to the goals the publisher was looking for so they are cut loose. In some cases this occurs even though they are under contract...for instance they might cancel books 2 - 3 of a three book deal becaues book 1 under performs. What's more...maybe they'll want me but the money they offer won't be as high as I suspect I can make on my own...in that case I might turn down an offer and return to self-publishing. Maybe I'll decide that writing is just too much of a pain and quit altogether. I doubt that will be the case - but it could. I actually quit wirting for ten years because I wasn't getting anywhere.
 
The only real issue between the two is managing expectations. I know people who have self-published eBooks who, at least early on, were pretty sure that making the work available and maybe putting in a little bit of marketing effort was going to translate into a success story (financially). The truth is, the likelihood of that happening is relatively small.

Emphasis mine. I think in the "old days" (read when I started self-publishing in 2008) that was indeed true. But I follow the "indie" scene pretty closely (well actually my wife does and she talks my ear off about it) and there are hundreds of authors that make good money doing this. Is it everyone? No? Is it most? No. But I venture to say that it is about the same % (maybe even better) of people who make it through traditional routes. In other words if there are 10,000 queries to agents the number of projects that make it to market is approximatley equivalent to the number of books that are successfully self-published out of 10,000 titles uploaded.

The reason for this is that most writing won't "make it". It takes a lot of skill and talent to write a book. It takes a lot of marketing to get a book noticed. The book has to be really good to find a grass-roots word-of-mouth groundswell to get others to read it. All those planets have to align to "make it" and the chances against any author are pretty astronomical. I don't see this equation changing dramatically much whether it is self or traditionally published. In both cases "only really good" books are going to live through the process. Those seeking traditional publishing will have their "bad projects" die by never making it past the "gatekeepers" (agents/editors). Those seeking self-publishing will suffer low (or no) sales.

The same goes for podcasts of works and the like, which some authors do. It is not a bad idea by any means, and as part of an overall marketing strategy it may be helpful, but self-published writers have to remain cognizant of the fact that in all likelihood an ultimate success will be a lengthy process and may be modest at best. I've seen over-inflated expectations have a really negative impact on writers and other artists when they don't play out.
Agreed - but again applies to both paths. Publishing in either incarnation is a marathon not a sprint and in most cases, success comes after years, or decades.

None of the alternative approaches to marketing oneself and one's work are bad, and I think many of them can be effectively combined as part of an overall strategy. For most of us, there won't be a quick path to success, however, whether as self-published authors or ones who are traditionally-published.

Agreed.
 

Dreamhand

Troubadour
Well since I can't make that statement...how can you?

Because you're a writer? Because you will likely continue to BE a writer and you will write more books that will require new contracts? I can say it with conviction because I've read your work and you have a gift for story-telling. I can say it because, based on your posts and activity in your blog and here on MS, you clearly love this work and will likely continue pursuing it.

My question is: pragmatism aside, why can't YOU say it? Do you really think your current contract WILL be your last?

The point I was hoping to reinforce with that statement is that each effort of publication - whether it's offering a free e-book or podcast, or pursuing the acquisition of an agent or publishing deal - is a single step on a long adventure. Commit to each step seriously, but don't get so wound up in its outcome that you become paralyzed and blind to the other paths open to you.

MichaelSullivan said:
I know Tee personally and he doesn't make his living off of writing - he has a day job

My apologies for misrepresenting Tee's status and thank you for correcting me. I recall an interview where I thought he had mentioned "quitting his day job" but after reviewing it, found I was mistaken. I've edited that post accordingly.

MichaelSullivan said:
Actually most authors, don't "make a living" getting paid as authors

Well sure, just like "most stage actors don't make a living getting paid as actors" and "most fine artists don't make a living selling their artwork." I'm assuming your point here is that many authors whose names we recognize (and assume spend their days writing their next novel) are actually still working a day job and writing when they can find the time. And that's a valid point... it aligns with Steerpike's observations regarding expectations and Devor's comments about being aware of what's involved. I completely agree.

MichaelSullivan said:
Of course there are [alternatives to conventional publishing]...I'm not sure why you think that people are not aware of this fact.

[bracketed text is mine]

I made an assumption based on the prevalence of "conventional publishing" posts and the relative dearth of threads addressing alternative methods. Also, I've had recent exchanges that have been dismissive of these alternate methods and I (perhaps arrogantly) assumed others have had similar experiences. I hoped to expand awareness among the MS community of the viability and validity of those options.
 
Because you're a writer? Because you will likely continue to BE a writer and you will write more books that will require new contracts? I can say it with conviction because I've read your work and you have a gift for story-telling. I can say it because, based on your posts and activity in your blog and here on MS, you clearly love this work and will likely continue pursuing it.

My question is: pragmatism aside, why can't YOU say it? Do you really think your current contract WILL be your last?

Just because I continue to write doesn't mean I'll be "under contract". If sales no meet expectations - I'll be dropped. If they don't like the next project I write - it won't be picked up. I've self-published in the past and enjoy the freedom of doing so and I might return to that. Will this be my first and last? No idea...but I'm pragmatic enough to know that there are no guarntees in any profession and most especially in publishing which can be quite fickle.

The point I was hoping to reinforce with that statement is that each effort of publication - whether it's offering a free e-book or podcast, or pursuing the acquisition of an agent or publishing deal - is a single step on a long adventure. Commit to each step seriously, but don't get so wound up in its outcome that you become paralyzed and blind to the other paths open to you.

No disaggrement there.


My apologies for misrepresenting Tee's status and thank you for correcting me. I recall an interview where I thought he had mentioned "quitting his day job" but after reviewing it, found I was mistaken. I've edited that post accordingly.

Well sure, just like "most stage actors don't make a living getting paid as actors" and "most fine artists don't make a living selling their artwork." I'm assuming your point here is that many authors whose names we recognize (and assume spend their days writing their next novel) are actually still working a day job and writing when they can find the time. And that's a valid point... it aligns with Steerpike's observations regarding expectations and Devor's comments about being aware of what's involved. I completely agree.

No worries - you correctly pointed out my position which is that I don't want people to get the wrong impression that writing for a living is commonplace. I think we all "wish" that were the case - but most authors I know (even those with multiple titles on the market) keep their day job. It's a sorry state of afairs but it is is what it is.

I made an assumption based on the prevalence of "conventional publishing" posts and the relative dearth of threads addressing alternative methods. Also, I've had recent exchanges that have been dismissive of these alternate methods and I (perhaps arrogantly) assumed others have had similar experiences. I hoped to expand awareness among the MS community of the viability and validity of those options.

There are many options now that didn't exist even a few years ago. I've not noticed a dismissive attitude toward alternate methods and of course since I used alternate methods you'll see nothing but full support of exploring all types of ways to meet your goals.
 
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