Why don't people realize how hard it can be to write?

[T.Allen.Smith]

I'm not suggesting any type of enforceable obligation has been made. I'm not implying any legal binding, and yes legally speaking the author owes you nothing beyond that single transaction...book for money.

TV & movies don't equate in my view. The investment by the viewer is not the same as the investment of a reader. That reader takes the words you've written, internalized them and offers a bit from their own experience to complete the story in their mind's eye. Sitting down to watch a TV program takes much less input from the viewer (if any at all).

As an author, if I'm expecting people to join me on an epic journey of my creation, to invest enough of themselves to care about the events & characters, then I owe them a conclusion. This is especially true if I've gained a strong following. Those fans are part of an author's success. Success came from the author's hard work, coupled with the reader's investment in the story. It has little to do with monetary exchanges and contracts.

If we're talking about an epic series or even a trilogy, there's certainly some obligation towards that completion if the author has any respect for the people that helped them achieve their success. Authors of successful serial works know full well that a growing fan base will expect continuation to conclusion. The fact that they've started writing an epic in the first place tells us there's an initial desire to complete that story. That initial desire is the source of the author-reader promise. With the writing of a 1st book of a series, that author is promising those that buy it and invest themselves in the work, that there will be more to follow.

 

[Devor]

Why would the author have an obligation to write another book if the fans don't have an obligation to read it?

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Because in selling book one of a series, planned, written, & marketed as a series...the author is saying "Buy this, there's more to follow." - That's the promise inherent with writing & selling an epic.

Readers buy based off that expectation. Writers write, hoping for readers. That's a big difference.

If authors aren't willing to fulfill that expectation, they should stick to Stand-alone books.

OP: sorry, we've gotten off topic.

 

[Penpilot]

I'm sure GRRM could pump out the next book in a month, but it'd most definitely be crap. Different authors work at different paces. I'd rather wait five years for a great book than one year for a piece of trash. If you think about it, GRRM can't win in this situation. If he writes a bad book quickly, the fans will give him crap. It he makes them wait, he gets crap. So I'm guessing is he'd rather write something good and get crap for making people wait than deliver quickly and get crap for writing a shite book.

This relates to the OP in that, like people who don't understand the problems of being a writer, people don't understand what it takes to write an epic on the scale and quality of GOT and what problems arise during it's writing. It's not just a matter of getting words down. It's about thinking out problems, whether they be character, plot, or world building. And sometimes solving those problems does not involve sitting in front of a keyboard demanding your brain produce literary gold. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to walk away and go gardening or what ever. Like Gaiman said, living your life gives you material to use in your writing.

I wager that GRRM probably has a very rough "draft" of the next book sketched out in some form or another, but getting from rough draft to finished product can be a long and arduous task.

 

[SunnyE]

Seems to me that a lot of people have an inflated view of their own abilities. In everything. Can't tell you how often I've heard some idiot say, "Hey! I could totally do that!" Whether speaking of writing, art, acting, athletics, dancing, politics, medicine, you name it, there are a ton of people out there that are convinced they could do it. And probably better, faster and easier while they're at it. And they are able to hold that view and continue to spout that view to everyone in earshot because they will never, ever attempt to do what it is they are claiming is so easy, thereby never being really challenged on their claims. Armchair quarterbacking seems to be universal. Experts (or at least people devoted to their job/art/passion) tend to make what they do look easy. So outsiders look at it and think, "Hey, I bet that's easy. And because it's easy, I could do it." People who haven't sat down to try and write a book are clueless as to what goes into it. To be honest, I've always been a great writer and when I decided to write a novel for publication, I really did think it would be easy-peasy. Got myself educated on that mighty quick. It's one of the most difficult things I've ever done. But I also understand how someone who has never attempted to write a book, a good one, could not see how hard it really is. When I hear someone who can barely string together coherent sentences in their native language tell me they are writing a book, I just nod my head and tell them how nice that is for them. And smile.

 

[PlotHolio]

I'm not saying by any means that Martin has to hurry up. He can do it at his own pace. My issue with A Dance With Dragons was that even after waiting for years, it was a mediocre book. I think what happened was that he wanted to focus on his shiny new TV show and his short stories for a while, and then when he sat down to write Dance, he realized he had almost no motivation.

For every ten fans that hate him for taking years to write a novel, where will be one who understands and just wants a good book. But George's new popularity convinced him to appease the former rather than the latter. That's part of why Dance is mediocre. The other part is that it's technically A Feast for Crows: Part 2. It's the second half of one book followed by the first half of another.

As for Scott Lynch, I want to read Republic of Thieves. I also want to read Zero Sight 3, Blood of the Falcon 3, The Tower Lord, and The Painted Man 3. I want to read a lot of books. When I see that any of these books are delayed for some reason or another, I just go read something else. With the advent of the Kindle Store, there's always a book (sometimes written by someone who can barely string together coherent sentences in their native language) on sale for $2.99. It's not a masterpiece, but it can be fun to read.

And sometimes, it is a masterpiece (Blood Song).

And Steerpike...

You say people should have the right to choose if my standard applies to them. That makes no sense. People don't get to choose if standards apply to them. Either they meet them or they don't. Also, T.Allen.Smith is right. It's not the purchase of a $9.99 paperback that binds Martin to his fans. It's that he chose to publish them in the first place. We've all invested ourselves in the eventual completion of the story.

Imagine a world where authors were not in any way expected to finish a story once they start it...

NORSE FARMER: So what happens after Grendel attacks the mead hall?
ANONYMOUS SKALD: I have no idea. I got bored and decided to write something else.

BOOKSHOP OWNER: This book covers a normal day in the life of Leopold Bloom, up until sometime around 2 PM, where it ends midsentence.

PAT SUMMERALL: To the twenty... To the twenty-five... To the vending machines to get myself a Pepsi...

 

[Steerpike]

You say people should have the right to choose if my standard applies to them. That makes no sense. People don't get to choose if standards apply to them. Either they meet them or they don't.

This doesn't make sense, because this is exactly what you're doing - deciding on a standard, and that it applies to you, and that it should decide to others. Neil Gaiman could just as easily say that his standard applies to you. Who's right? No matter how you end up, you have one group of people choosing a standard and deciding it applies to everyone else.

 

[PlotHolio]

I don't know Neil Gaiman's standard. If it's about writers, then it does apply to me. Whether I meet it or not is a different story. Even if I don't, all that means is that he has the right to call me a horrible writer if he wants to. Then again, he has that right anyway.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't know Neil Gaiman's standard. If it's about writers, then it does. Whether I meet it or not is a different story. Even if I don't, all that means is that he has the right to call me a horrible writer if he wants to. Then again, he has that right anyway.

Well, the link to the Neil Gaiman piece about George Martin gives the opinion of Gaiman that George Martin has no obligation to write additional books beyond the one he's already written and you've purchased. That's a standard that is different from the one you state in this thread. And so, in adopting either one of these you are making a choice and then applying the standard in your judgment of others. You're free to apply the standard you like, as is anyone else. It's not an absolute, where one is right and the other is wrong.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I've only ever read Gaiman's Neverwhere.

Has he written any epic fantasies?... Anything comprised of a trilogy or more?

 

[PlotHolio]

Gaiman is talking about rabid fans demanding that Martin release his books quickly. That's not what I'm doing at all. As long as Martin eventually finishes Song of Ice and Fire, that's fine with me.

 

[Steerpike]

I've only ever read Gaiman's Neverwhere.

Has he written any epic fantasies?... Anything comprised of a trilogy or more?

His Sandman series (graphic novel) was something like 75 issues long. Apart from that, I don't think he does much in the way of series. I think Anasasi Boys might be tied to American Gods (as in, same fictional universe), but I'm not certain.

 

[Steerpike]

Gaiman is talking about rabid fans demanding that Martin release his books quickly. That's not what I'm doing at all. As long as Martin eventually finishes Song of Ice and Fire, that's fine with me.

Yes, but you're purposefully avoiding the point about standards. I suppose that takes us further off topic than we need to go, however.

 

[PlotHolio]

I'm not avoiding your point about standards, I'm disagreeing with it.

 

[Amanita]

There are simply some people who believe that only hard manual labor is real work, only working as a scientist or engineer is worth anything or many more other things. Very often, the "real" jobs happen to be those the person in question or her family members are doing.
I don't think getting worked up over something like that is very helpful. I tend to either avoid the people or the subject matter.
The idea that people believe they could do something much better than others, especially popular things like music, sports or writing novels is quite common too. In Germany when there's a soccer worldcup you often find some people complain that there are suddenly "80 million national coaches".
From my personal experience so far I have to admit that writing and this goes for both novels and scientific papers is a much more pleasant passtimes than many things other people are forced to do for their money. Therefore I can sort of sympathize with people standing in noisy factories for hours for example not taking the troubles of writers very seriously.

As far as the issue around George RR Martin is concerned, I have to admit that I'm quite surprised by some of the statements I've read here.
Usually, I'm reading the advice that being a professional writer is not about waiting for inspiration but about doing the work of writing and getting books out relatively quickly. In Martin's case, people seem to disagree suddenly and believe that he really can't write a proper book reasonably quickly for such reasons.
An author has no legal obligation to finish a series of course but I do think that someone calling themselves a professional should be able to finish what he has started, as long as there's no severe trouble getting into the way.
Personally, I'd be very proud if readers cared about my story and characters enough to be so keen on a new book. I very often tend to forget about serial works if there's no new book after a reasonably short period of time. The only exception has been Harry Potter but in that case, the entire waiting and speculation has been way more fun than the acutal reading. Therefore no one was trying to push Rowling in an unfriendly way either, at least not as far as I know.

 

[Penpilot]

Usually, I'm reading the advice that being a professional writer is not about waiting for inspiration but about doing the work of writing and getting books out relatively quickly. In Martin's case, people seem to disagree suddenly and believe that he really can't write a proper book reasonably quickly for such reasons.

I won't speak for anyone else, but when I give the piece of advice to just finish a book, I'm usually referring to the first draft. The first draft is a long way from a publishable manuscript. Now other times, it's in reference to not get caught up in over editing or the eternal edit. It's about knowing when you've made your book as good as it can be relative to your skills and then moving on. There's no discrete time period for this. it's actually different for everyone. Some people can churn out 3 books a year, others only one, or less.

There's a difference between someone who's on their 56th draft and only the minutia of the text has changed since draft 4 and someone who's on their 10th rewrite because significant plot holes needed to be plugged at the request of their publisher.

Like all writing advice it's imperfect and there are no absolutes. There will always be exceptions because it depends on the variables of the situation.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't think GRRM's work ethic is in question here. He tends to take his time and he doesnt put works out quickly. That has little to do with him not doing the work of writing...that's not the reason his books have years between releases.

He is, after all, writing a seven book epic. From my understanding, he doesn't care how long it takes between books. He wants to be remembered by how good the stories are, not by how many he pumped out in a certain period.

When writers talk about "doing the work" they arent referring to putting out books or stories as quickly as possible. They may talk about the second, or third books being the best sales aids of the first, but they arent suggesting that speed at the expense of quality is any measure of success.

 

[Amanita]

He tends to take his time and he doesnt put works out quickly.

I've been refering to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to stop writing an epic series in the middle due to lack of inspiration or more interest in other projects which has been suggested by some posters above.
Anyway, I don't agree with that notion to put out books as quickly as possible myself but I've noticed that it has been advised in a way in some places here.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I've been refering to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to stop writing an epic series in the middle due to lack of inspiration or more interest in other projects which has been suggested by some posters above.
Anyway, I don't agree with that notion to put out books as quickly as possible myself but I've noticed that it has been advised in a way in some places here.

I don't believe he's stopped work due to lack of inspiration. From my understanding, it is a continual work...something that he progresses on daily. Interest in other projects or characters aside, he still works on its completion.

Personally, as a big fan of the series, I don't care how long it takes between books (as long as it reaches completion). The stories and characters have so many compelling features, that if he needs six years for production then so be it.

People won't remember authors for how quickly they produced, but by the quality of the story and characters within.

 

[Amanita]

I'd like to apologize if my posts sounded as if I was attacking Mr. Martin in any way. This wasn't my intention, I don't really know anything about him and the discussions about his books. I was merely surprised by some of the reactions to propositions made by others here on this forum and in the linked article.