Seriously? Why is it that so many people can pass off writing like its no big deal or that pumping out a novel can be done in a day. From my own personal experience I've had to put up with people that constantly joke or laugh that I write and yet they do absolutely nothing creative or productive. Is this a mechanism for them because they feel threatened or just that they are pricks? Anyone else experience this or something similar?
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Why don't people realize how hard it can be to write?
- Thread starter Un'gravah
- Start date
FatCat
Maester
Can't say I've ever experienced this for myself, well not the presumption that writing is easy. I think that sometimes people judge (rightly or wrongly) that an aspiring author is just someone with their head in the clouds, and maybe don't take your claims too seriously. That I have experienced. I think the same thing applies with a lot of creative arts; I bet poets have it worse...well, mimes?
Nihal
Vala
For the same reasons people think drawing is easy. "It's just a talent thing, you were born with this so it's nothing for you. So, go make me a free drawing!". Also "It's no real job, you just sit there and draw like a child doing something you like! Don't be a fool, where would you find work!? You don't know what is hard work!".
Just... no.
It's a skill, not a talent. It comes for a price. You take years or tons of money to master it (in art's case), you spend years investing your time while people are partying, you must change the way you perceive the world to get better at it. You get pains for the time you spend drawing and I guess the same may happen to some writers. Your true talent is the perseverance, is being able to train until you finally improve while other people just give up.
Just... no.
It's a skill, not a talent. It comes for a price. You take years or tons of money to master it (in art's case), you spend years investing your time while people are partying, you must change the way you perceive the world to get better at it. You get pains for the time you spend drawing and I guess the same may happen to some writers. Your true talent is the perseverance, is being able to train until you finally improve while other people just give up.
MadMadys
Troubadour
I don't think I've ever encountered this personally. If anything, quite the opposite. If I ever mention that I enjoy writing or that I've done a first draft of an entire novel I get general appreciation for the ability to do such a thing. Most people lack the imagination, dedication or capabilities to do it and most that I've ever met (and this goes for friends, which I could see appreciating it, and co-workers, who admiration for such things was unexpected) seem rather thrilled to know I can do it.
Even thinking back to college, my ability to write was looked at with envy as I would edit other people's papers and give suggestions. A lot of people really do struggle writing 5 pages. I do to but it's because I WANT TO WRITE A LOT MORE.
It's a shame that you've found such hostility but if it comes as any comfort, I can say it is no where near universal.
Even thinking back to college, my ability to write was looked at with envy as I would edit other people's papers and give suggestions. A lot of people really do struggle writing 5 pages. I do to but it's because I WANT TO WRITE A LOT MORE.
It's a shame that you've found such hostility but if it comes as any comfort, I can say it is no where near universal.
Oh god tell me about it. I used to hang out a lot in The Webcomic List forum and there's be several threads a week about a writer looking for an artist. Most of the time the "writer" in question had an idea - or several ideas - but no script. They saw themselves as writers even though they'd not written anything. Some even assumed the artist would "contribute" to the dialogue (ie, write it) while the "writer" would be more a sort of plotter. As an actual writer, and one who had attempted on several occasions to create webcomics, I understood how difficult it was to actually write the scripts. Ideas are easy. Translating those into a script is very difficult indeed - harder, for me, that translating into a novel. You've got to think visually, consider pacing with every line, consider panelling and overall page layout etc. It's not just one panel then another panel, either. Some panels are bigger than others, and you've got to mentally organise them into pages so the right panels are emphasised - you want the last panel to be almost a punchline, even in longform comics, not a boring panel. If you've got a whole page spread you've got to organise panels prior to that to fill an exact number of pages. It's a nightmare. And these kids (they usually were) would just saunter up with an idea and demand that an artist recognise their genius and work with them.
I don't recall seeing a single comic that started as a "writer looking for artist" thread (and I was a moderator there, I checked every single one and even created a stickied advice/etiquette thread that was mostly ignored anyway)
As far as general people I know or meet are concerned, I don't see the same attitude. Mostly people are like "oh cool" then move on when they learn I'm writing a novel. They don't really say anything about it.
But in general I don't think creative endeavours are given the respect they deserve. I heard a story about Picasso. Someone recognised him in a restaurant one evening and said they'd pay him if he would draw something on a napkin. He did, handed the napkin to the fan and said "That's one million dollars, please." The fan replied, "One million dollars? But it only took you half a minute!" and Picasso said, "Yes, but it took me 50 years to learn how to draw that in half a minute."
I still follow a lot of webcomickers, and I think it was one of those who tweeted a link to something containing the above Picasso story. It seems a lot of the time webcomickers get asked to draw something for free, or for a comically low fee, because it's "what they love" anyway, it's not percieved as work.
But it is. We creative people work at what we enjoy to try to improve. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something (or about five years, working full time). But it doesn't seem like most people realise that being a good artist or writer is part of that too.
I read an article recently where a Hollywood screen writer talks about why he doesn't read other people's scripts. Apparently a lot of people just ask him to read their scripts, and his policy is to say no, he's too busy, he's got other obligations - reading scripts studios are paying him to read, for a start. So he says no. But one time he felt unable to say no, and read the script and it was awful. But the script's author - plus his girlfriend, who the screen writer was friends with, and other mutual friends - asked for him to be honest. So he was. after several different versions of emails, he eventually settled on an honest but positively toned email explaining some of the major issues with the script and suggesting the next steps to the author. And all their mutual friends heard about it or read it, and they all thought he was being mean. He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just trying to be honest, but he got lambasted because of that. So he doesn't read scripts.
The way this is relevant to the current discussion is that people think they can write when they can't, and then get upset when someone who would know tells them they can't. Not to say that they can't get good if they work at it, but any teenager can put some words on a page and call it a story. But not everyone can write well.
I don't recall seeing a single comic that started as a "writer looking for artist" thread (and I was a moderator there, I checked every single one and even created a stickied advice/etiquette thread that was mostly ignored anyway)
As far as general people I know or meet are concerned, I don't see the same attitude. Mostly people are like "oh cool" then move on when they learn I'm writing a novel. They don't really say anything about it.
But in general I don't think creative endeavours are given the respect they deserve. I heard a story about Picasso. Someone recognised him in a restaurant one evening and said they'd pay him if he would draw something on a napkin. He did, handed the napkin to the fan and said "That's one million dollars, please." The fan replied, "One million dollars? But it only took you half a minute!" and Picasso said, "Yes, but it took me 50 years to learn how to draw that in half a minute."
I still follow a lot of webcomickers, and I think it was one of those who tweeted a link to something containing the above Picasso story. It seems a lot of the time webcomickers get asked to draw something for free, or for a comically low fee, because it's "what they love" anyway, it's not percieved as work.
But it is. We creative people work at what we enjoy to try to improve. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something (or about five years, working full time). But it doesn't seem like most people realise that being a good artist or writer is part of that too.
I read an article recently where a Hollywood screen writer talks about why he doesn't read other people's scripts. Apparently a lot of people just ask him to read their scripts, and his policy is to say no, he's too busy, he's got other obligations - reading scripts studios are paying him to read, for a start. So he says no. But one time he felt unable to say no, and read the script and it was awful. But the script's author - plus his girlfriend, who the screen writer was friends with, and other mutual friends - asked for him to be honest. So he was. after several different versions of emails, he eventually settled on an honest but positively toned email explaining some of the major issues with the script and suggesting the next steps to the author. And all their mutual friends heard about it or read it, and they all thought he was being mean. He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just trying to be honest, but he got lambasted because of that. So he doesn't read scripts.
The way this is relevant to the current discussion is that people think they can write when they can't, and then get upset when someone who would know tells them they can't. Not to say that they can't get good if they work at it, but any teenager can put some words on a page and call it a story. But not everyone can write well.
"Zombie zoo, zombie zoo, who let the zombies out of the zombie zoo . . . ."
I don't know why, but everyone seems to think they can write just as well, that there's a lot of terribly written stuff getting published, that it's easy money, and that you're delusional for thinking you can be "lucky" enough to make it.
Can we say talent and hard work, story construction, quality product, networking . . . . ? There's some luck involved with anything, sure, but hard work and the sense to know what you need to do can get you just about anywhere.
I don't know why, but everyone seems to think they can write just as well, that there's a lot of terribly written stuff getting published, that it's easy money, and that you're delusional for thinking you can be "lucky" enough to make it.
Can we say talent and hard work, story construction, quality product, networking . . . . ? There's some luck involved with anything, sure, but hard work and the sense to know what you need to do can get you just about anywhere.
In my experience, people lie all over the spectrum on how they feel about writing (or any other creative art form).
Some have great reverence and respect for authors, understanding that there is a craft that needed to be learned & a comprehension about what a daunting task writing a novel can be, the commitment involved. They are well aware how many people try, and fail, constantly....every year...throughout history.
Some people, without any real, intimate knowledge of craft, believe that writing is merely putting words on paper. They write emails, chat on Facebook, occasionally pen an actual letter. Therefore, they may feel they could write a novel or story...if they wanted to. Often, even aspiring writers fall into this category, those that dream of being a literary success without the understanding that, in the end, a lot of hard work is required. They offer excuses. I'm going to start writing when "x" is done, or some similar reason for postponing the actual labor of art.
Still, others are just indifferent. They don't care about the art form, or any type of creative art for that matter. They don't read. They don't appreciate visual arts beyond movies, they simply don't care. I'm not chastising this outlook. It's just not their cup of tea. Don't ever expect people like this to appreciate the work behind the scenes. They never will because it is unimportant to their lives.
"A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people." ~Thomas Mann
I love that quote. It illustrates that, once you take an art form seriously, delving into the craft to become a true, working practitioner, only then can you realize the difficulties of doing it well. So don't be too hard on the uninitiated. They just don't understand.
For those fans, that one day, may consider your writing or art the work of genius:
"It's none of their business that you have to learn how to write. Let them think you were born that way." ~ Ernest Hemingway
Some have great reverence and respect for authors, understanding that there is a craft that needed to be learned & a comprehension about what a daunting task writing a novel can be, the commitment involved. They are well aware how many people try, and fail, constantly....every year...throughout history.
Some people, without any real, intimate knowledge of craft, believe that writing is merely putting words on paper. They write emails, chat on Facebook, occasionally pen an actual letter. Therefore, they may feel they could write a novel or story...if they wanted to. Often, even aspiring writers fall into this category, those that dream of being a literary success without the understanding that, in the end, a lot of hard work is required. They offer excuses. I'm going to start writing when "x" is done, or some similar reason for postponing the actual labor of art.
Still, others are just indifferent. They don't care about the art form, or any type of creative art for that matter. They don't read. They don't appreciate visual arts beyond movies, they simply don't care. I'm not chastising this outlook. It's just not their cup of tea. Don't ever expect people like this to appreciate the work behind the scenes. They never will because it is unimportant to their lives.
"A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people." ~Thomas Mann
I love that quote. It illustrates that, once you take an art form seriously, delving into the craft to become a true, working practitioner, only then can you realize the difficulties of doing it well. So don't be too hard on the uninitiated. They just don't understand.
For those fans, that one day, may consider your writing or art the work of genius:
"It's none of their business that you have to learn how to write. Let them think you were born that way." ~ Ernest Hemingway
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I've run into this a bit. Some people think, "Hey I can write a proper sentence. Hey I've got ideas. Ergo, I should be able to write a story just like we see in the book store. How hard can it be?"
Seriously, that's what they think. I think it's common among those ignorant of anything that looks, from the outside looking in, simple to do. How hard is it to take this football and run it down the field? Easy. How hard is it to toss this ball into a hoop? Bah. Child's play. I can boil water and chop stuff. Why can't I be a world renowned chef? I can add and multiply and write numbers into columns. Why can't I be an accountant?
Some people only see the external part of things. They don't realize the mental skill involved in things like writing, or anything for that matter.
And part of this is us writers doing it to ourselves. Have you seen how writing is portrayed in movies and TV? I remember watching this Stephen King movie, The Dark Half, where the writer character gets praised by his wife for writing ten... TEN pages to a novel. That's like 2500 words. That's like one chapter. She acts like just because he wrote those ten good pages that what was to come would be sooo easy and would be a guaranteed best seller. Give me a break.
Honestly, I think a lot of people think all writers do is get drunk, crap out some words, and lets an editor sort them out into a story.
Seriously, that's what they think. I think it's common among those ignorant of anything that looks, from the outside looking in, simple to do. How hard is it to take this football and run it down the field? Easy. How hard is it to toss this ball into a hoop? Bah. Child's play. I can boil water and chop stuff. Why can't I be a world renowned chef? I can add and multiply and write numbers into columns. Why can't I be an accountant?
Some people only see the external part of things. They don't realize the mental skill involved in things like writing, or anything for that matter.
And part of this is us writers doing it to ourselves. Have you seen how writing is portrayed in movies and TV? I remember watching this Stephen King movie, The Dark Half, where the writer character gets praised by his wife for writing ten... TEN pages to a novel. That's like 2500 words. That's like one chapter. She acts like just because he wrote those ten good pages that what was to come would be sooo easy and would be a guaranteed best seller. Give me a break.
Honestly, I think a lot of people think all writers do is get drunk, crap out some words, and lets an editor sort them out into a story.
PlotHolio
Sage
I understand this perfectly. However, having to wait 5 years for a mediocre book (A Dance with Dragons) or having a book I really want to read delayed for years because the author is depressed (Republic of Thieves) is still not fun for me.
Not that I'd go up to Scott Lynch and slap him into action. I'd tell him that I love his books and bury my other feelings deep inside.
Not that I'd go up to Scott Lynch and slap him into action. I'd tell him that I love his books and bury my other feelings deep inside.
Ghost
Inkling
I bet it's less fun for those authors.
Neil Gaiman had commentary directed to some of these issues, where he points out George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.
Neil Gaiman's Journal: Entitlement issues...
Neil Gaiman's Journal: Entitlement issues...
PlotHolio
Sage
I'm not saying that Scott Lynch is sitting at his computer giggling while he watches thousands of people waiting quite impatiently for his novel. Even though that's a fun image, I know depression isn't fun. I'm not one of the people who asks him when Republic of Thieves is coming out every time he posts something on is blog.
While I appreciate that artists and authors are people too, I must say that Neil is wrong this time. As an author, I believe I have a responsibility to finish what I start. I don't know about you guys, but the reason why I write is because my head is teeming with thousands of people, places, and things that are, frankly, quite awesome. I want to share them with the world, and I want to do it well.
If one of my ideas seems less awesome after a while, I deal with it and write anyway, because now my friends think my creations are awesome, and if I didn't give them the maximum amount of awesome, I would be unhappy. Not them, me.
I guess my point is that I hold my favorite authors to the same standards I hold myself.
Hopefully this post makes sense and isn't the written equivalent of a gallon of half-dried silly putty thrown into a turbine.
While I appreciate that artists and authors are people too, I must say that Neil is wrong this time. As an author, I believe I have a responsibility to finish what I start. I don't know about you guys, but the reason why I write is because my head is teeming with thousands of people, places, and things that are, frankly, quite awesome. I want to share them with the world, and I want to do it well.
If one of my ideas seems less awesome after a while, I deal with it and write anyway, because now my friends think my creations are awesome, and if I didn't give them the maximum amount of awesome, I would be unhappy. Not them, me.
I guess my point is that I hold my favorite authors to the same standards I hold myself.
Hopefully this post makes sense and isn't the written equivalent of a gallon of half-dried silly putty thrown into a turbine.
You're not really holding authors to the same standards, though. For yourself, you are allowing yourself to decide. YOU feel a responsibility to finish what you start. YOU would feel bad if you didn't provide your work to others. To hold another author to the same standard, I think you have to give them the same freedom to determine for themselves whether they feel the same way or not.
I think Gaiman is right. On what basis would George Martin have a responsibility to live his life for others instead of himself? Because you or I bought one of his $9.99 paperbacks? I think Gaiman is right again when he says that what we bought was that specific book. If fans had Martin on retainer and were paying him ongoing fees to complete the next book, then I think he has a responsibility. As it stands, I can't think of where on earth an obligation from him to you or I would stem from.
I think Gaiman is right. On what basis would George Martin have a responsibility to live his life for others instead of himself? Because you or I bought one of his $9.99 paperbacks? I think Gaiman is right again when he says that what we bought was that specific book. If fans had Martin on retainer and were paying him ongoing fees to complete the next book, then I think he has a responsibility. As it stands, I can't think of where on earth an obligation from him to you or I would stem from.
Alexandra
Closed Account
Simple, because they've never had/wanted to do it themselves. Also, we make writing look effortless because we don't write in front of an audience, at least most of us don't, and our finished product doesn't look physically impressive.
PlotHolio
Sage
Sorry, Steerpike, but you're confusing me a bit. Are you saying that I'm being unfair because all authors don't share my sense of responsibility?
Right, of course, right. I'm pretty sure George R. R. Martin is Bantam Books' Bitch, not mine.
PlotHolio
Sage
Clever, and most likely 100% true.
Just that the fact that you've freely chosen what level of responsibility to take one with respect to a book series doesn't mean every author has to, or should, feel the same. GRRM hasn't done anything to obligate himself to me or to you, in my view.
Although I understand where you're coming from, I'm not certain I can agree. If I buy 5 books of a 7 book series, you're damn right I expect to eventually get all 7. If, for some reason, GRRM just decided one day that he'd grown tired of writing about Starks & Lannisters and the fans be damned, there'd be a huge backlash.
Now, obviously in this case, he has contractual agreements with the publisher that he needs to honor. I'm not talking about that however. I believe there is an understanding, not quite a contract, but an implied promise. If I start reading this epic series, and like it, it's your responsibility to complete the story for me. Every artist should hold themselves accountable to their fans in that regard. It's not quite as simple as, "Here's your $9.99, I expect nothing more from you beyond this portion of the tale that I just purchased."
I'm not asking an author to live their life according to my wants & demands for $10 or $50 invested. What I'm asking for is for the author to make good on their promise.
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I don't feel the same way. I don't think I have a responsibility to you, although I agree that an artist should consider the fans. Think of the number of TV series that have been canceled without a final episode or two to tie up or resolve the ongoing plot. Do they owe us a final episode to tie-up all of the story lines before they cancel? I don't think so. If I devote an hour of my time for an hour of entertainment, that's the end of it, in my view. If they make another episode, I can decide whether or not to watch it with the same considerations in mind. How about a movie that leaves a story line open and is clearly in anticipation of a sequel, only the movie studio never makes the sequel? Have they also breached their obligation?
I don't know. Maybe one reason I tend not to buy books that are part of a series until the series is done is because I want to see that the author finishes it. I'm in the middle of some long series however. I've read ten books in a projected twelve-book series, and while I suppose I'd be disappointed if the series wasn't finished, I guess I don't see the authors as obligated to me. An obligation implies to me something that can or should be able to be enforced. If the authors decide to stop writing and spend the rest of their lives working with animal shelters, should I have some recourse? Should I be able to say 'no, as one of your readers I now have a stake in your life and what you do with it?'
I'm not seeing the responsibility. I offer a book for $9.99. You choose to buy it knowing that none of the rest have been written. It's a free and informed exchange. If you told me the price of the book not only included the actual book, but also your right to hold me obligated to you for X number of years while I finish the series, I'd probably charge a hell of a lot more for it
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