Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

Do superheroes count as fantasy? If so, I've always like Barbara Gordon. Wonder Woman is cool too, although depending on the writer she can get... abrasive.

Spoiler: Wonder Woman being abrasive

yeah... But then again, it was Frank Miller.

I don't really count superheroes, so I'd say:

-Eowyn (LOTR)
-Amara (Codex Alera)
-Maggie Folchart (Inkworld Trilogy)
-Maurynna Kyrissaean (The Last Dragonlord, Dragon and Phoenix)
-Mulan (has a dragon. totally counts.)

 

[Philip Overby]

I've heard Octavia Butler, Ursula K. LeGuin, and Mercedes Lackey's names mentioned a lot in discussion of great fantasy writers. I almost bought a short story collection of LeGuin's Earthsea stories the other day I found at a bookstore here in Japan. Can anyone recommend "starting books" for these authors?

 

[Steerpike]

For Octavia Butler, Parable of the Sower, Kindred, and Fledgling are all quite good. Kindred is about a black woman from modern times who is uncontrollable shifted back in time into one of her ancestors in the south during slavery.

Angela Carter (yeah, you didn't ask) - her book of short stories called The Bloody Chamber.

 

[Zero Angel]

Miyazaki's got two great ones in Nausicaa from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and Sophie of Howl's Moving Castle (although that's shared with Diana Wynne Jones version).

Lessa from Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of PERN books.

I don't like any of the female characters in GRRM's books. They're too human.

 

[Mindfire]

I've heard Octavia Butler, Ursula K. LeGuin, and Mercedes Lackey's names mentioned a lot in discussion of great fantasy writers. I almost bought a short story collection of LeGuin's Earthsea stories the other day I found at a bookstore here in Japan. Can anyone recommend "starting books" for these authors?

As far as LeGuin goes, read the Earthsea books if you haven't already. But stop after you read The Farthest Shore. The ones she wrote later go... a bit off the rails. They also have considerably less action, which is saying something, and can feel a bit dull.

 

[Ophiucha]

Haha, Frank Miller.

Mercedes Lackey is famous for the Valdemar series, which is like 30-something book longs and still going. The first book in that series (by publication order) is called Arrows of the Queen. It's a damn good series, but obviously a bit of a commitment. They are grouped into trilogies, though, which makes it a bit easier to get through.

A Wizard of Earthsea, the first book in the Earthsea series, is a good place to start with LeGuin. She's written a lot of great stuff, and she has a lot of short stories you can find in various anthologies if you want to get a taste. If you like science fiction, she's known for The Left Hand of Darkness, which is regarded by many to be the best work of feminist science fiction. Many even place it above The Handmaid's Tale (Margaret Atwood).

Octavia Butler is mostly science fiction, but a lot of her works blur the line. Kindred, though dealing with time travel, definitely seems more like a fantasy novel. It is my favourite of her works; I wouldn't say there is a definitive best place to start for her. Fledgling is about vampires, though from a more SF perspective. Most of her other books are part of a series. I think all of her works are fantastic; probably one of the most consistently good authors out there.

 

[Steerpike]

Octavia Butler is mostly science fiction, but a lot of her works blur the line. Kindred, though dealing with time travel, definitely seems more like a fantasy novel. It is my favourite of her works; I wouldn't say there is a definitive best place to start for her. Fledgling is about vampires, though from a more SF perspective. Most of her other books are part of a series. I think all of her works are fantastic; probably one of the most consistently good authors out there.

There is an audio version of Parable of the Sower read by Lynne Thigpen that is just wonderful.

 

[Zero Angel]

I used to enjoy LeGuin's Earthsea books, but they quickly wore off. I'm not a fan any longer.

 

[Ophiucha]

I adore the first two, but the later Earthsea books are hit-and-miss. Not bad, I don't think, but there is a drop in quality. The first is a classic, though, so I'd say it's worth reading. I think she's much better at writing science fiction, though.

On the subject of female authors, let's not forget what half of the people under 30's first fantasy author was: J.K. Rowling.

She had quite the range of female characters in her stories, and I thought she did a good job writing them. Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood, Ginny Weasley, Molly Weasley (c'mon who doesn't love Molly?), Bellatrix LeStrange, Narcissa Malfoy... great selection. I wish a few of them had gotten bigger supporting roles, particularly the Gryffindor girls who were in Harry's year. We got a huge character arc with Neville Longbottom and plenty of time was spent on Seamus and Dean, but Lavender was only really in one book, and her character wasn't fantastically developed, and the only thing I recall Parvati doing was going to the Yule Ball.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

hmm... Nobody's tossed in Tanya Huff, so I will. Fantastic, strong, funny, and flawed female characters in pretty much everything she writes. One of my favorites is Vicki Nelson from her Blood books.

Also, Robert Heinlein wrote some truly unforgettable female characters. Maureen Johnson, Lazarus Long's mother, from To Sail Beyond the Sunsetwas awesome! However, I don't recommend that book for the feint of heart.

I've heard Left Hand of Darkness described as feminist fiction, but when I read through it I honestly didn't see that. I was left with the impression that whenever one of her androgynous aliens leaned toward their female aspects that they became weak and rather vapid. The writing was brilliant, and the idea certainly ahead of it's time, but the execution I felt was lacking. Heinlein's I Will Fear No Evil would probably qualify as being more feminist.

 

[Chilari]

So, someone give me their top five "strong" female characters from fantasy fiction. Five characters where you'd say the author got it right.

Susan from the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett. She's pretty kick ass.

Tiffany Aching, also from Discworld. Actually, if it comes to it, all the witch characters from Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg to Magrat and Agnes. There's real variety in their outlooks, but they're all strong characters. Agnes is no-nonsense, Tiffany is similar in some ways but more sort of "things need to get done and I'd better be the one to do them".

Althea from the Liveship Traders trilogy by Robin Hobb. Actually all of Robin Hobb's female characters are really good - she shows real variety on her characters, their motivations, their desires, the degree to which they adhere to social expectations and so on.

I've got a soft spot for Sophie Hatter in Howl's Moving Castle by Diane Wynne Jones. She has a good mix of strengths and weaknesses that make her feel so real as a character. She causes as many problems as she solves, always with the best of intentions but perhaps not always with the greatest degree of thought before acting, but without actually getting as far as to be holding the idiot ball.

Eowyn in Lord of the Rings. She walks that line between what's expected of her socially and breaking social expectations to do the right thing. While her brother is in exile, she cares for her uncle - nursing being considered feminine, certainly in Tolkein's time - but she recognises that being meek and feminine just won't do when the orcs are bearing down on them, and she won't be pushed aside.

 

[Chilari]

Miyazaki's got two great ones in Nausicaa from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and Sophie of Howl's Moving Castle (although that's shared with Diana Wynne Jones version).

No. Just no. Miyazaki's Sophie is not a good character. She's too reactive, too content to let Howl sort everything out, too passive. She's much better in the book.

 

[Mask]

I quite liked Sophie from the film. She gets turned into an old woman... and just toughs her way through it! The world keeps throwing crazy stuff at her, but she doesn't let it stop her. I don't consider her reactive; I think of her as but stalwart and unflinching.

 

[Chilari]

Have you read the book, Mask? The only bits of the movie that were any good were where they stayed close to the book. When things diverged, it got bad. Towards the end, Sophie is such a wet blanket passive character in the film. In the book she's still proactive. As for the "tough old woman", that's a favouroite trope of Miyazaki's. All his old women are like that. She lacks individuality throughout, with the age thing meaning that in the film, she gets two different personalities - tough old woman and sweet passive heroine, neither of which are unseen in Miyazaki's other movies. In fact I'd go as far as to say he really doesn't create interesting female characters, for how many of them are protagonists in his movies. They're almost none of the proactive except Nausicaa and Kiki, but rather reactive - following where the story takes them, doing what they're told they should do, letting others decide things for them. But even Nausicaa and Kiki are fairly flat, dull characters. There's barely any substance to them. In what way do any of Miyazaki's female main characters - Nausicaa, Kiki, Chihiro, Laputa, Mononoke and so on - actually stand out from one another in characterisation? It's all in their history and their social standing and what happens to them. Their motivations are plot-dictated; without them they are blank canvasses. Take them all from their individual stories and put them all in the same context, and they'd all just stand there waiting for something to happen or someone to explain to them what's going on.

 

[Philip Overby]

I personally love Miyazaki's movies, but not for any character reason. I think his worlds are amazing and most of his work is more plot-driven. As far as his women characters, even if they're one-dimensional, I still find them really interesting. Mononoke riding the wolf is an image burned into my mind, the same as Chihiro giving the bath to whatever that thing is in Spirited Away. Mononoke is not much different than a lot of other heroines: she has something she wants to fight for and she protects it. It doesn't have to go much deeper than that. For a book, yes, you need a lot more characterization, but for a movie most of Miyazaki's male characters aren't any deeper than the female ones, in my opinion.

 

[Ophiucha]

Personally, I don't mind reactive characters. Not all stories need to have a proactive protagonist, in my opinion. Alice in Wonderland is a fantasy classic and Alice does very little but keep walking her way through the story. Both times, if you extend it to Through the Looking-Glass. Being reactive doesn't necessarily make you a bad character, it just tends to make you a bit of a static one. And I think that's okay. Chihiro, in my opinion, is as fully developed as we need her to be from the very beginning of the story. From her trying to keep her parents from eating the food to her 'picking' her parents from out of the pigs in the pen. It's definitely unusual, and I think it is more common in non-Western literature to have a static protagonist (which is something to consider when discussing Miyazaki), but I don't feel like the character is underdeveloped just because she doesn't develop during the story, we just end up seeing more of her as she already was.

Chihiro and Kiki are my favourite of Miyazaki's female protagonists. And I do agree that the book for Howl's Moving Castle was a lot better than the film; it's easily one of my least favourite of his films, right alongside Porco Rosso. Though it isn't as bad as his son's attempt, while we're on the subject of Ursula K. LeGuin, to adapt the Earthsea books. Lord have mercy, Tales from Earthsea was a disappointing film.

 

[Chilari]

Though it isn't as bad as his son's attempt, while we're on the subject of Ursula K. LeGuin, to adapt the Earthsea books. Lord have mercy, Tales from Earthsea was a disappointing film.

Oh great, thanks. I'd almost wiped that from my memory. Now I have to start again.

Actually, truth be told, Tales from Earthsea inspired the story that became Ailith's Gift, which I published in Myths Inscribed. Basically, my fiance Matt raged so hard over the ending - he hates it when characters turn into dragons at the end of the story, which is also why he won't play Oblivion any more and why he doesn't like Spirited Away - that I promised I'd write a story which was the opposite: a dragon would turn into a man at the beginning of the story. I worked on several versions of it, and Ailith's Gift represents the start of what I was planning, though I don't know now if I'll ever continue it.

Fun on-topic fact: Ailith in my story Ailith's Gift is a woman in a fantasy story. Wow!

Ah, but seriously. I honestly think Robin Hobb is the epitome of female characters done right (of what I've read). She is very good at creating varied characters with depth to them, with different types of flaws and strengths that well reflect their background and upbringing without pigeonholing them.

 

[Philip Overby]

I've heard a lot of good things about Robin Hobb over the years. I have Assassin's Apprentice somewhere around here, but only read the first couple of chapters before I got sidetracked. I liked what I read and I've heard her Farseer and Tawny Man series are worth reading also.

 

[Steerpike]

hmm... Nobody's tossed in Tanya Huff, so I will. Fantastic, strong, funny, and flawed female characters in pretty much everything she writes. One of my favorites is Vicki Nelson from her Blood books.

I like Huff. I like Staff Sgt. Kerr from her Valor series. Vicki Nelson is good, too.

As for those recommending Robin Hobb, she also wrote a lot of fantasy under the name Megan Lindholm (which I believe is her real name), so you might look for those as well.

 

[Mindfire]

Basically, my fiance Matt raged so hard over the ending - he hates it when characters turn into dragons at the end of the story, which is also why he won't play Oblivion any more and why he doesn't like Spirited Away

Why does that bother him so much? Also, has anyone here seen "Legend of Earthsea", the Sci-Fi channel miniseries?