Women in fantasy

[Ophiucha]

I agree with you, Mindfire, in that I have seen that mindset elsewhere. Perhaps - as a woman - I find it hard to understand that particular example, but to take another form of minority, I have seen people say exactly what you just said about white/non-white characters. When I was younger, I got into a debate with a girl over on Gaia Online (yeah, I know) about whether or not Hermione could/should have been black - and I definitely felt like "wow, no, you can't take Hermione from me!" even though, logically, there are like thousands of characters just like her who are all white, and so few who aren't. Even though, just by the percentages, there are more white people in fiction than there are white people in Europe or America.

Certainly, I could see the same being the case with gender. Particularly if, as with Kim Possible (a show I really liked as a kid), they end up relegating all of the male characters to the same roles they tend to give women. I mean, think about a genderflipped Lord of the Rings. There are like three women in all three books who have more than one line; the movies had to resort to the appendices to really bulk up a couple of the roles. I think women might just be more... used to having to empathize with men, whereas a young boy can easily go his whole childhood without watching or reading anything with a major female protagonist. Hell, even the Disney movies tend to let the princesses fall into a coma or something half way through so the princes/whimsical sidekicks can take over.

But I think that attitude will phase out as more works with women come into the mainstream. The recent Disney movies have had more active protagonists (though the one black one was a frog for most of the movie; so ehh on what was discussed in the first paragraph of this post), and The Hunger Games is pretty popular. It might take a few years for all of these kids to grow up and start writing their own books, but progress tends to take time. We just have to make sure we don't take a dip while we're waiting, really.

 

[Zero Angel]

After watching the intro to Kim Possible again, I can't believe she had an exposed midriff in practically every scene! How did that make it into the design??? It's impractical when she's fighting, probably against school dress codes, and definitely not something I would want my hypothetical daughter looking to for fashion sense.

 

[Mindfire]

So basically, Mindfire, since we've pushed so much one way, you're afraid of it snapping back and going too far the other way. It would be nice to find some middle ground, and if you look at rational people making art nowadays, I think there are many succeeding.

I never noticed that in Kim Possible until you just now mentioned it, but Wade was a pretty main character, wasn't he? How many cool guys do you need in the show? Were there bad girls too though? (I really can't remember it. It's been years and I wouldn't describe myself as a fan, just someone that watched it occasionally).

Since I seem not to have been clear: I was making a point based on a view I unconsciously held roughly ten years ago. I no longer think in this fashion.

What I'm saying is that in general those who resist more adequate female representation in entertainment are (as I was once upon a time) afraid of it snapping back the other way. And yes, I middle ground is greatly needed and I think shows like Avatar represent what that middle ground could be.

 

[Mindfire]

After watching the intro to Kim Possible again, I can't believe she had an exposed midriff in practically every scene! How did that make it into the design??? It's impractical when she's fighting, probably against school dress codes, and definitely not something I would want my hypothetical daughter looking to for fashion sense.

To be fair, they actually lampshade that during the show. And while she does bare the midriff, her design isn't really sexualized or seen as an object of fanservice. Well, not in the mainstream anyway. Rule 34 doesn't count.

Also, later on in the show she gets this battle suit:

As well as a slightly redesigned outfit:

Neither of which have the midriff open.

 

[Devor]

On the contrary, if you look at just about every other show that has "girl power!" as one of its key themes or just focuses on a female character, you'll note that the guys tend to be remarkably lame or downright stupid.

There was a video going around for a while where they staged a girl slapping a guy in public, then asked the bystanders what they thought. They all said "N'eh, he probably deserved it." Whereas, a man slapping a woman in public would usually make everyone angry. There is a double standard where insults by women towards men is considered okay, even by the people who decry men doing so towards women. There's a group out there protesting the "dumb dad" trope in sitcoms, which (at a guess) is probably the most prevalent insult-based trope going on today.

But . . . it's also the prevailing trend that men don't really care. In many ways it's not just about the anti-group message, it's also about the way that message is received. So long as women interpret the messages negatively, and men don't, then the "double standard" doesn't mean as much.

I agree that the anti-male attitude among many feminists is unhealthy for those involved, but I don't personally take offense. Y'know?

((got ninja'ed by a lot, with no time to respond. Oh well.))

 

[Mindfire]

There was a video going around for a while where they staged a girl slapping a guy in public, then asked the bystanders what they thought. They all said "N'eh, he probably deserved it." Whereas, a man slapping a woman in public would usually make everyone angry. There is a double standard where insults by women towards men is considered okay, even by the people who decry men doing so towards women. There's a group out there protesting the "dumb dad" trope in sitcoms, which (at a guess) is probably the most prevalent insult-based trope going on today.

But . . . it's also the prevailing trend that men don't really care. In many ways it's not just about the anti-group message, it's also about the way that message is received. So long as women interpret the messages negatively, and men don't, then the "double standard" doesn't mean as much.

I agree that the anti-male attitude among many feminists is unhealthy for those involved, but I don't personally take offense. Y'know?

I get that. But what I'm saying is that if any headway is to be made, both sides need to reexamine their attitudes.

 

[Ophiucha]

Regarding the "dumb dad" trope, I must wonder, though, who do the protesters think are writing these characters? Most TV writers and directors are men. Most of these TV shows (Family Guy, The Simpsons, etc.) are targeted primarily at men. While I can empathize with the distaste for a gendered trope like that, women can direct the blame towards the predominantly male writers of the TV shows that feature them, and men... just sort of have to do the same? Yeah, it sucks, but it's other men writing it, you know? And I don't think it is written for women, since women don't watch a lot of these shows - not feminists, certainly.

There is the leeway with, like, yoghurt and cleaning product commercials, which are targeted towards women... but are still usually written by men.

 

[Devor]

I get that. But what I'm saying is that if any headway is to be made, both sides need to reexamine their attitudes.

That's true for most things. Nobody is ever just wrong or right when you have complex issues likes these.

 

[Devor]

Regarding the "dumb dad" trope . . . And I don't think it is written for women, since women don't watch a lot of these shows - not feminists, certainly.

That was, like, the least important part of my post.

But you should know that almost all TV shows skew towards a female audience.

 

[Ophiucha]

That was, like, the least important part of my post.

I disagreed with the rest and disregarded it to avoid a fight.

But you should know that almost all TV shows skew towards a female audience.

I am actually, legitimately, laughing out loud right now. TV shows are usually written for men, they're almost all written by men, and if they are trying to target a female audience than I have never seen such an epic failure in all my years. How are TV shows written for women when shows like Game of Thrones add extra sex scenes that only have female nudity? How are shows like Family Guy written for women, full stop? There are like two sexist jokes per episode. How are shows like Supernatural written for women, when almost none of the female characters can make it to three appearances without being killed off? There are shows written for women - your Vampire Diaries and your Sex and the City-type shows, but even those are still usually written by men. Both of those examples are, and as a woman, let me tell you, it shows when you're watching them. And for every vapid reality show about the Jonas Brothers there's one about ice fisherman or lumberjacks. Some women don't mind, some women take it since it's better than nothing, but the idea that TV is skewed in any way towards women is laughable.

 

[saellys]

Since I seem not to have been clear: I was making a point based on a view I unconsciously held roughly ten years ago. I no longer think in this fashion.

What I'm saying is that in general those who resist more adequate female representation in entertainment are (as I was once upon a time) afraid of it snapping back the other way.

I've heard this argument before. I can understand that being an extreme reaction from someone who has never actually spoken to anyone who wants more representation. Past that point, it's baseless and irrational at best, and intentional muddying of the waters at worst. "I don't want men to end up how women are treated now!" is not a valid reason to resist treating women (or anyone else) better.

 

[Ophiucha]

This article is multifaceted enough to warrant a thread of its own, but I didn't feel like starting one and then rehashing the same things we've been posting about for forty-two pages, so I'll just resurrect this thread to link it.

"'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle, and Slaves' Narrative," by Kameron Hurley

Just realized I didn't actually reply to this article in the first place.

The author sort of... goes off after a few paragraphs, but I think it brings up a few nice points. Also, she brought up Tiptree's "The Women Men Don’t See" - link! - which I've always liked since it's such a simple little story that just says a lot more than you're expecting until the very end. Recommended reading for anyone who wants to read a feminist SFF story (it's pretty short, too, for those unwilling to tackle The Handmaid's Tale or similar readings).

 

[Mindfire]

I've heard this argument before. I can understand that being an extreme reaction from someone who has never actually spoken to anyone who wants more representation. Past that point, it's baseless and irrational at best, and intentional muddying of the waters at worst. "I don't want men to end up how women are treated now!" is not a valid reason to resist treating women (or anyone else) better.

I never said it was. I said the attitude exists. And if you want any progress to be made, the wall has to come down. For you to say that my statements are irrational and baseless is at best close-minded and at worst condescending.

Did you not read Ophiucha's post earlier? She seems to get it.

 

[Mindfire]

I disagreed with the rest and disregarded it to avoid a fight.

I find this amusing.

I am actually, legitimately, laughing out loud right now.

I think what Devor is saying that on average, women watch more tv than men. I have no way of knowing if that's true, but it's something to consider.

 

[Devor]

I am actually, legitimately, laughing out loud right now. TV shows are usually written for men, they're almost all written by men, and if they are trying to target a female audience than I have never seen such an epic failure in all my years.

Take a look.

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't think that means they target things towards women. Indeed, they don't. At all. I mean, women play video games - some polls even suggest more than men, but that doesn't mean developers and publishers put much effort in appealing to them. There's a joke going around that Call of Duty is getting a dog protagonist before it ever had a female protagonist.

Despite that, we had this controversy mere months ago. Women may very well watch more TV or play more video games than men, but they are not the target audience. So I think it is important to distinguish between who is the audience and who is the target audience, because the latter is almost always 'adult white males' but the former isn't.

 

[Devor]

I don't think that means they target things towards women. Indeed, they don't. At all.

That just isn't true. I've sat the classes, heard the execs, and just showed you that the overwhelming number of shows skew towards a female audience. Market Research is a science. Believe me, they know who they're targeting, why, and how.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

No, Ophi, Devor is right. While the majority of TV writers are men, the majority of viewers are women. Sexist jokes on Family Guy aside, yeah, it's women making those shows so popular. So, could we call both men and women enablers of stupidity?

Now, ordinarily tweaking Mindfire's tail is one of my favorite things, but he's making a good observation. I've been seeing the "feminism will emasculate men" fear since I was a teen in the 90's, when that book Men Who Smell Like Wolves or whatever it was called came out. I saw Ironman 3 a couple weeks back. He was pretty awesome, and faced down some serious personal issues with the bad guys. Nice thing was, Penny Potts got to kick butt, too. So, good observation, but I'm not seeing superheroes being turned into wimps by getting in touch with their "feminine" sides.

 

[Jabrosky]

I never said it was. I said the attitude exists.

I'm sure it does if you look hard enough. Human beings have an uncanny talent for developing the strangest and most twisted attitudes or beliefs about anything. The question is how influential are the people who espouse the attitude you're complaining about?

 

[Ophiucha]

More college age boys watch My Little Pony than little girls. Does that mean they changed the show so that it was rated MA and put on HBO to appease the majority of their viewers? No. They had a target audience, little girls, and they write for that audience. They appreciate their older fans, because hey, ratings. But they don't write for them, and they don't change things for them. You'll see the writers of Supernatural and Teen Wolf give little winks and nods to their female fans, maybe have the actors of whatever gay ship is popular hug it out off-set, but it's not like they would ever change their script so Dean and Castiel were together. Why? Because the target audience is college age white dudes. It's about bros who like busty Asian girls and cars and classic rock and killing things with guns, and the female audience is incidental.

To an extent, I agree with aelowan. Maybe we, women, should 'vote with our dollars' (or in this case, our ad revenue/ratings). But the creators are not changing their shows just because we're watching them.