Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

I don't feel compelled to sympathize with this dude based on the premise that it took "courage" to ask a random girl out to dinner. Rejection is a part of life. I hope I live long enough to see the day when women, in their interactions with men, fear something as trivial as rejection.

Once I spent an entire year working up the nerve to give a cute boy my number; he never called me. I did not demand a reason why, though I could have since we saw each other frequently enough for several years after. He wasn't into me, so I moved on. Street Corner Bike Dude did not respect my first two answers, and I did not owe him an itemized list of reasons. That list would have started and ended with "You just approached me out of nowhere," which he obviously thought was totally acceptable, so it would not have been effective anyway.

Your implication that I should have nursed his wounded male pride by softening my answer is part of the reason women fear rejection too... but we're afraid of being the rejector. Not only are we trained by our culture to be wary of how men might react to rejection, but if we do flat out say "no," we're told later that we should have handled the situation differently. "No" in all its forms has to be respected without caveat, mitigation, or elaboration.

Saellys, if the guy was pushy I can understand your reaction, and you were within your rights to say no regardless. For what it's worth, I was actually on your side up to this point. But the tone of this statement makes it sound like you relish in giving unqualified, unexplained negative answers for the joy of wounding male pride out of a sense of vengeance. Just saying.

 

[saellys]

No, I said Mythopoet implied his pride was wounded and I should have done something about it. I did not relish the experience in the slightest. I would have relished being left alone to go about my business without unsolicited, questionably romantic advances from a total stranger.

 

[Mindfire]

Okay. Note to self: do not approach strangers. I'm learning so much today.

 

[saellys]

Yeah, that's definitely what you should take away from my posts.

 

[Mythopoet]

No, I said Mythopoet implied his pride was wounded and I should have done something about it. I did not relish the experience in the slightest. I would have relished being left alone to go about my business without unsolicited, questionably romantic advances from a total stranger.

I did not imply any such thing. I presented it as a possible reason someone would want a deeper reason for being rejected. You're reading a lot into my statements. My point is that perhaps before you assume that someone approached you with malicious intent and viewed you as property, you should take a moment to ponder whether it's reasonable to make such assumptions about ANY human being based on so little interaction. Human beings are complex creatures and we all have our own motivations. The way you are shallowly characterizing this guy as the enemy doesn't make me sympathize with you at all. It seems like you go through life seeing women as the constant victims of male aggression. Unless you live in a very different world than I do, this seems extremely unreasonable.

Like I said before, the best way to treat others is to give them the benefit of the doubt at all times, unless you have really good reasons for not doing so. In my opinion, based on the way you reported the incident, you didn't have good reasons.

 

[Zero Angel]

Except that this is precisely what you are doing. You are grouping people into the ones that deserve your respect and the ones that don't. I don't know what exactly your criteria is to get into those groups, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't agree with it.

Right so here's an example from my life. In 8th grade there was a kid that raped a 3 year old and was sent to juvenile detention for a while. That was (a) a conscious decision for him to enter that group (rapists and pedophiles I mean) and (b) something I could not move past in my esteem of the individual. From about 10th grade through 12th grade, if I saw him harassing female students (he would probably say flirting, but the girls were "too nice" to outright get rid of him even though they all detested him), I'd go over and be rude and belligerent until he left. The girls then thanked me and I responded by telling them they don't have to be nice to him. Many of them were afraid to not be nice.

There was probably another tactic I could have tried that involved befriending him, trying to get him to sublimate his perverse ways, etc, but that's not one I was willing to do.

Zero Angel, this may not be your intent, but you're starting to come off as kind of an amoral, Machiavellian type.

I have morals and ethics, they're just not necessarily the same as everyone else's. Plus, I'm thinking about all of the characters I create as well when I am responding on here. I don't necessarily believe that the ends justify the means, but sometimes I think that the ends are worth the means. It really is just a matter of scope. If the stakes are large, then it would be immoral NOT to be immoral. Has anyone ever seen "When the Last Sword is Drawn"?

We are trained in society to be anti-Machiavellian, but you have to remember that Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" to a prince, not a normal member of society. There are many examples of leaders being Machiavellian and it having been the right thing to do. WWII after the allies broke the Nazi code for example. The leaders made a conscious decision to not save everyone they could because if they did, then the Nazis would know the allies had broke their code and they wouldn't be able to continue using it. I'd never say that was moral or ethical for them to have forfeited those lives, but it would have been MORE immoral for them not to have.

 

[Zero Angel]

Okay. Note to self: do not approach strangers. I'm learning so much today.

You could just not feed the trolls

 

[saellys]

I did not imply any such thing. I presented it as a possible reason someone would want a deeper reason for being rejected. You're reading a lot into my statements. My point is that perhaps before you assume that someone approached you with malicious intent and viewed you as property, you should take a moment to ponder whether it's reasonable to make such assumptions about ANY human being based on so little interaction. Human beings are complex creatures and we all have our own motivations. The way you are shallowly characterizing this guy as the enemy doesn't make me sympathize with you at all. It seems like you go through life seeing women as the constant victims of male aggression. Unless you live in a very different world than I do, this seems extremely unreasonable.

Like I said before, the best way to treat others is to give them the benefit of the doubt at all times, unless you have really good reasons for not doing so. In my opinion, based on the way you reported the incident, you didn't have good reasons.

I'm not saying he had malicious intent. He invited me to dinner, a pretty innocuous thing to do by any standard. I drew my conclusion about his view of me as property because he only backed off when he found out I was married. I cannot see his deeper motivations, only what he did and said after I rejected him. I don't believe he intended me harm, but I do believe, based on our interaction, that he was unwilling to respect my wishes until he found out I was "taken".

Also, women are the constant victims of male aggression.

You could just not feed the trolls

I like to think I contribute meaningfully to this community in enough ways to not be labeled a troll for defending my beliefs.

 

[Mythopoet]

I'm not saying he had malicious intent. He invited me to dinner, a pretty innocuous thing to do by any standard. I also did not say he viewed me as property, but that he only backed off when he found out I was married. I cannot see his deeper motivations, only what he did and said after I rejected him. I don't believe he intended me harm, but I do believe, based on our interaction, that he was unwilling to respect my wishes until he found out I was "taken".

You don't even have to leave the country. In street harassment situations, I have found that the only way to get a dude to leave me alone is to say I'm married. They literally don't respond to anything else.

Obviously the situation is not as dire as your experiences in Egypt. Nevertheless, that attitude of ownership, or a woman only being "off-limits" if she's married regardless of what she actually wants, exists here too.

The quote above strongly implies that you viewed this particular exchange that you related as "harassment". What is harassment if it's not malicious? You present this as an example that men "literally" don't respond to "anything else" meaning that there is never a situation in which a man would leave you alone unless they find out you are married. You also present this as an example of an "attitude of ownership" being present here as well as in Egypt. So yes, you are implying that this "dude" maliciously harassed you and the only reason he decided that you weren't his property is because he found out you belong to someone else.

And, from the way you described the encounter, I find that a highly unreasonable assumption to make. If there's more to the encounter that actually makes it seem like you aren't just jumping to conclusions about a stranger's character, then please share.

Also, women are the constant victims of male aggression.

So a study of women in one state that found 33% of them have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime means that women are constant victims of aggression, does it? Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not a victim of male aggression, so that disproves the "constant" part.

 

[saellys]

The quote above strongly implies that you viewed this particular exchange that you related as "harassment". What is harassment if it's not malicious? You present this as an example that men "literally" don't respond to "anything else" meaning that there is never a situation in which a man would leave you alone unless they find out you are married. You also present this as an example of an "attitude of ownership" being present here as well as in Egypt. So yes, you are implying that this "dude" maliciously harassed you and the only reason he decided that you weren't his property is because he found out you belong to someone else.

And, from the way you described the encounter, I find that a highly unreasonable assumption to make. If there's more to the encounter that actually makes it seem like you aren't just jumping to conclusions about a stranger's character, then please share.

Mitigation time: I edited my prior post to better reflect my conclusion about him seeing me as property. It's still not an unreasonable assumption. Our conversation ended when I told him I was married, not before. What else am I to conclude?

So a study of women in one state that found 33% of them have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime means that women are constant victims of aggression, does it? Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not a victim of male aggression, so that disproves the "constant" part.

Read past the first section. A woman is raped every two minutes in America. Hence the word "constant". I'm glad it's never happened to you.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

I'm trying really, really hard to keep out of this ... oh, how shall I put it? ... free and frank exchange of views, but I have to say this. For a woman, being approached by a completely unknown man, for any reason whatsoever, is CREEPY. If she's on her own, it's also SCARY. It's entirely irrelevant that his motives may be innocuous, he means it as a compliment or he had to summon all his courage, or whatever, the woman doesn't know that, because he's a complete stranger. He isn't entitled to reasons or anything else, because his behaviour is threatening. If you want it explained in more detail, try this:

Guest Blogger Starling: Schrödinger

Now can we get back to talking about women in fantasy?

 

[saellys]

I certainly won't make the mistake of posting my personal experiences here for everyone's scrutiny again. Here is a collection of street harassment, for anyone who's curious--from innocuous to life-threatening and everything between.

Now. Favorite fantasy novel cover art, or illustration from a fantasy novel, or fanart of a fantasy novel, featuring a female character? Paksenarrion's cover is high on my list, of course.

 

[Ophiucha]

Regarding the 'men are more likely to be soldiers/criminals' explanation for mooks, I think that is valid in games and books that take place on Earth - modern or earlier. But, for instance, in a game like Skyrim, where women and men are clearly equal (we see a female Jarl, female generals, and at least a few - if fewer - female bandits and city guards), I don't know if our societal norms dictate anything more than the programmer's choice to have more men in the group than any logical worldbuilding. This also still leaves open the question of monsters: why are monsters like zombies more likely to be men? Unless you've got a virus where, like, women are only carriers (hmm... not a bad idea actually), then why would there be so few women in the zombie hoardes? And other monsters are usually male as well, unless they intend to have the 'he's a mommy!' twist to justify a sequel where there are hundreds of (all male-coded) monsters instead of just the one. The only two truly monstrous ones I can think of Scylla and Charybdis, which are just a rock and a whirlpool so it's generous to gender them one way or the other at all. Most other monsters are coded exclusively male, with the exception of the seductress ones (sirens, earlier discussed succubi) or the ones that are otherwise topless and mostly humanoid, like mermaids and harpies (though we don't see much of centaurs, sans the infamous bit in Fantasia).

Like, dragons are popular enough that those numbers are beginning to even out (though the non-sentient ones are still almost exclusively male), but where are my female cyclopses? Or the part-woman, part-cow minotaur equivalents? Female ogres and orcs and krakens and chimeras? Tragic lack of lady!monsters, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Ophiucha]

Favorite fantasy novel cover art, or illustration from a fantasy novel, or fanart of a fantasy novel, featuring a female character? Paksenarrion's cover is high on my list, of course.

I'll be the one to bring up the simple choice of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass. The John Tenniel art is fantastic, and incredibly influential on how I see fantasy worlds as a whole. Plus, Alice is adorable in them. I'd be the annoying aunt who pinches her cheeks if I were Victorian and living in her world. And I don't believe this is my first time mentioning my love of Elia Fernandez's fanart of the Game of Thrones women, seen here (spoilers and minor nudity!; here are a couple that aren't).

 

[saellys]

Quoted post deleted by Chilari.

My last word on this particular subject: It's sad that men are presumed dangerous until encountered in a safe environment, but it's way more sad that women have to take these precautions in the first place.

Everybody go look at this awesome 1990s-style Game of Thrones fanart now.

 

[saellys]

I'll be the one to bring up the simple choice of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass. The John Tenniel art is fantastic, and incredibly influential on how I see fantasy worlds as a whole. Plus, Alice is adorable in them. I'd be the annoying aunt who pinches her cheeks if I were Victorian and living in her world. And I don't believe this is my first time mentioning my love of Elia Fernandez's fanart of the Game of Thrones women, seen here (spoilers and minor nudity!; here are a couple that aren't).

I've seen the Ygritte one but I never knew there were more! *swoon*

 

[Feo Takahari]

Quoted post deleted by Chilari.

I had what I consider a productive conversation with a cute girl on the bus a few weeks ago. She asked to borrow my phone to make a call, and when she was done, we chatted for a bit about school, work, and plans for the future. She was happy to talk, and I was ready to listen.

A few days ago, some fellows I didn't know tried to start a conversation with me while I was trying to read. One of the first questions they asked me was where I lived, and when I said "nearby," they started to get pushy about the exact location. I had a hard time extricating myself even after I outright told them I didn't want to talk.

If someone doesn't want to talk, they don't want to talk. This doesn't mean you can't talk at all, it means you need to listen when people tell you no. No more and no less.

 

[Zero Angel]

I like to think I contribute meaningfully to this community in enough ways to not be labeled a troll for defending my beliefs.

We can all be trolls when prodded or fed enough. I only meant to say there was no need for Mindfire to be so incredulous over your posts. 58 pages in now, I no longer get offended or incredulous over your posts, I just skim them and go on to the next. You are contributing, but your imperviousity to critique and others' attempts to understand has made it so that calling you out for something is a fool's errand at best and troll-feeding at worst. On the other hand, I believe some people may be calling you out just to call you out, which approaches trolls-feeding-trolls.

 

[Kit]

I sometimes resort to earbuds (running into my pocket and connected with nothing) to get people to leave me alone. It's amazing how many people insist on trying to talk to you even when you have your nose in a book and respond with one-word answers (never taking nose out of book). I have also told people I'm married (or threw in a reference to a boyfriend) even when it wasn't true.

When you have earbuds in, you are perfectly entitled to completely ignore people.

 

[saellys]

We can all be trolls when prodded or fed enough. I only meant to say there was no need for Mindfire to be so incredulous over your posts. 58 pages in now, I no longer get offended or incredulous over your posts, I just skim them and go on to the next. You are contributing, but your imperviousity to critique and others' attempts to understand has made it so that calling you out for something is a fool's errand at best and troll-feeding at worst. On the other hand, I believe some people may be calling you out just to call you out, which approaches trolls-feeding-trolls.

When I see relevant critique (Feo's post a while back, for instance), I try to take it into account. When I spend two pages defending my response to unwanted advances from a stranger, I'm not really interested in giving ground.

I sometimes resort to earbuds (running into my pocket and connected with nothing) to get people to leave me alone. It's amazing how many people insist on trying to talk to you even when you have your nose in a book and respond with one-word answers (never taking nose out of book). I have also told people I'm married (or threw in a reference to a boyfriend) even when it wasn't true.

When you have earbuds in, you are perfectly entitled to completely ignore people.

I wear big honkin' headphones when I ride the bus or go to a coffeehouse to work on writing or design, and try to look as intent and unapproachable as possible. Sometimes people still try to talk to me. Sometimes I wish I lived in a less friendly place.