Women in fantasy

[Subcreator]

O.O

Your villainess makes Sitara look sane.

I am kind of going for insane with this one. Of course, this is also the story that has a pothead elf who's one of the good guys.

 

[Mindfire]

Tantalizing. As in "I'm going to dance around this subject and then pan to the curtains". A la Guy Gavriel Kay starting a chapter of The Lions of Al-Rassan with a sentence about Jehane really enjoying sex, and proceeding to not include any sex, "offscreen" or otherwise, in the entire chapter. I'm not saying I want to read lots of sex or anything, but I get irritated when an author uses the possibility of future sex as an attention-grabbing opening and then fails to deliver.

Now that's professional grade trolling, right there.

The other side of that coin is GRRM, who can get several pages into a sex scene before the reader even knows whether it's consensual. *shudder* Dude should stick to writing about food.

One of the many reasons Martin's work is... not for me.

 

[Subcreator]

One of the many reasons Martin's work is... not for me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I stopped halfway through "A Game of Throne." It wasn't so much his depiction of women specifically, but there was too much squick in there. Whether you're depicting men, women, or fuzzy animals, good sense should be followed, and while some people like seeing black and gray (sometimes a very dark gray in Martin's case), I can't bring myself to do it. My characters are flawed, injured, and sometimes plain dumb, and the antagonists are about as bad as can be, but I still try to show people as people rather than distorted carnival masks.

 

[saellys]

That's extra funny considering your avatar.

ASOIAF definitely isn't for everyone, but I've always been really impressed with how relatable he made even the most despicable antagonists. Everyone has a realistic motivation, except maybe Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton--they're just pure evil.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't see Martin's people as non-people. When you read history books and see a lot of the horrible things people used to do to one another, I think a lot of what might make them seem distorted isn't really far-fetched given the milieu.

 

[Subcreator]

I might have gone too far in implying they weren't realistic. Perhaps his books are just too bleak for my tastes.

 

[Ireth]

Wait, if she's a Fae, how can she touch an iron poker?

She protected her hand with a cloak so it wouldn't burn her.

 

[Mindfire]

She protected her hand with a cloak so it wouldn't burn her.

Oh. Okay then.

 

[saellys]

I might have gone too far in implying they weren't realistic. Perhaps his books are just too bleak for my tastes.

That is definitely the word, and it only got worse after Game.

 

[Mindfire]

I keep telling you guys, everyone is going to die. Everyone.

 

[Jabrosky]

I would submit my opinion on A Game of Thrones, but I think this thread has veered off-topic enough already. I would prefer to do so in another thread, perhaps in the Fantasy Novels section.

 

[Nihal]

I keep telling you guys, everyone is going to die. Everyone.

Yaaay! At least he'll take a break from describing food or diarrhea. Oh god.

Anyway, I like his females too.

 

[saellys]

I considered it all on-topic since we were talking about the portrayals of female characters, but I will happily join in on an ASOIAF thread in the Novels section!

 

[Jabrosky]

On second thought, I'll submit it here since I don't have enough to articulate for a separate thread's OP anyway.

I tried reading A Game of Thrones 2-4 times, but could never get very far into it before feeling confused over what was going on. I am not completely sure why. I must admit the generic pseudo-medieval European setting is not my favorite, but then I don't have the heart to write off a whole series based on its cultural flavor. That sounds too close-minded.

 

[Steerpike]

I liked the first 4 a lot. Can't seem to get into Dance With Dragons.

 

[Philip Overby]

OK, we sort off got off track talking about Martin's work instead of talking about women in fantasy. If it's not for you, then it's not for you.

I think Martin's women are flawed, interesting, and powerful in many different ways. If you only read the first book and give up half-way through, then you're not going to see how the character arc works for them.

 

[Devor]

I think Martin's women are flawed, interesting, and powerful in many different ways. If you only read the first book and give up half-way through, then you're not going to see how the character arc works for them.

I struggled with Dany a lot during most of the first book, mostly because she was so disconnected from the others, but also because she seemed like she was going to be a tool instead of a player. Or else that it would be another of those, "You've done this to me, now I'm going to kill you and usurp your role in the book." But the character arc is incredible, and I don't mean the dragon thing.

She goes from being a frightened tool, to accepting and embracing her role, to even developing a real fondness for the people who've been using her. But she then takes all of that stuff which might look like weakness, and she turns it into a strength which helps her to come into her own role as queen.

She didn't simply "give up" and let them destroy her. But nor did she simply flood with animosity towards her brother or her husband, not even towards the way they treat her as a woman, or her lot in life. It wasn't a matter of, "Viserys, brother, you wanted the crown, now I'm going to get it for you." Nor was it, "Viserys, you poser, now I'm going to take over your efforts and succeed where you failed." Her relationship with her brother is complex, and so are her motivations going forward.

She's a strong woman and a strong player because she cared for the people in her life, could still recognize their wrongdoings, and embraced her role - Targaryen, Stormborn, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi - until she made that role her own.

Maybe I'll look for an essay or an article to post later because I think there's a lot to say about Dany in Game of Thrones, and the broad strokes don't seem to cover it.

 

[Philip Overby]

I agree with a lot of what you said about Dany. She's one of those characters people either seem to love or hate, and I think it has more to do with some elements of her plot and less with her character. I think she's a pretty remarkable characters as well. I'd go as far to say one of the best characters in modern fantasy. I think she's underrated due to so many people loving Tyrion or the Stark children. Maybe I'm just reading the wrong stuff, but Dany seems to be sort of an afterthought for some readers. I think her arc in the first three books shows how to handle a "damsel in distress" character pretty well.

Since we're still discussing women in fantasy, I think we're still on a good track here, but I like saellys's suggestion to start a ASOIAF (spoiler tags or spoiler free I hope) thread where we can discuss all aspects of the series. I've been wanting to get into some serious discussion about this series for some time and it just has never seemed to crop up around here. And if it did, I totally missed it.

 

[Steerpike]

Apropos of comments relating to why the issue matters, or whether it matters that certain media is marketed directly toward males and is therefore immune from criticism of gender bias:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...6/the-sexual-objectification-spillover-effect

It is but one reason as to why the issue is important, why something like the Bechdel Test can be important (I'll point out that it was this inconsequential test that is directly responsible for spawning three threads and extensive commentary on the issue on this site alone), and why awareness of the issue is something that is of benefit to any Fantasy writer and to the genre as a whole.

 

[Mindfire]

This may be treading old ground, but what stops media separation from being a solution? There's already media that caters to boys, so all that's really needed is more media that caters to girls. Then the equation would balance and each side can consume its own media without interference from the other. I bring this up because I proposed this idea before and I didn't quite get a proper explanation of why it wouldn't work. And I'd really like to know why it wouldn't work. Logically, it seems that if each side disengaged from the other (women create media for women and men create media for men, with a mutual noninterference agreement) the imbalance should equalize and the gender media cold war should end.