Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

To clarify, if you take what was said in context of my mini-rant earlier on page 56, I think the manner of approach and the tone should be taken into account when judging the person. Not just "they approached me, so they must be dangerous." There's a line here is what I'm getting at. But if they cross that line, by all means, drop a piano on them.

 

[Chilari]

Let's keep this discussion about women in fantasy, please people. We shouldn't need to constantly remind you and while it would be sad to do so, we will lock this thread if it becomes too troublesome.

While it's not a book, one of my favourite depictions of the variety of female characters there can be, who have agency and contribute to the plot, is in Avatar: the Last Airbender. Katara, Toph, Azula, Mai and Ty Lee all have very different personalities, but they're all awesome in their own ways, and none of them are really flat, they've all got depth to their personalities. The LEgend of Korra was a bit of a disappointment to me because Korra and Asami seemed a lot more archetypal than their Last Airbender predecessors, with less depth; Asami in particular seemed to have almost no personality.

 

[Mindfire]

Let's keep this discussion about women in fantasy, please people. We shouldn't need to constantly remind you and while it would be sad to do so, we will lock this thread if it becomes too troublesome.

While it's not a book, one of my favourite depictions of the variety of female characters there can be, who have agency and contribute to the plot, is in Avatar: the Last Airbender. Katara, Toph, Azula, Mai and Ty Lee all have very different personalities, but they're all awesome in their own ways, and none of them are really flat, they've all got depth to their personalities. The LEgend of Korra was a bit of a disappointment to me because Korra and Asami seemed a lot more archetypal than their Last Airbender predecessors, with less depth; Asami in particular seemed to have almost no personality.

I think that's because Asami wasn't given much to do until the second half of the season. She was mostly there just to be Korra's foil/romantic speedbump. But despite that fact, people still found a way to hate her for absolutely no reason. And she got tons of hate. Just as much as, if not more than the hate Mai got from the Zutara shippers. What is it about this show and the ships it spawns?

But once Asami was given stuff to do, she was pretty awesome. Not quite as awesome as General Iroh II, but still up there.

 

[Zero Angel]

Does anyone think that the reason female characters are so popular in urban fantasy because it's "modern" and reflects modern values while traditional fantasy often has that patriarchal idea in our heads even when completely off-world or in a supposedly non-patriarchal society?

 

[Ophiucha]

I've seen the Ygritte one but I never knew there were more! *swoon*

Yes, they're very nice. I don't know all of the characters and I'm afraid to click on them because spoilers (though I'm a bit disappointed in this season so I might just read ahead of the TV show just so I can be excited about what's to come), but all of the pictures are gorgeous - particularly the colouring - and of the characters I do know the little bits of symbolism are lovely. Margaery is probably my favourite of her pictures, but Asha and Ygritte are both great, too.

 

[Chilari]

I think that's because Asami wasn't given much to do until the second half of the season. She was mostly there just to be Korra's foil/romantic speedbump. But despite that fact, people still found a way to hate her for absolutely no reason. And she got tons of hate. Just as much as, if not more than the hate Mai got from the Zutara shippers. What is it about this show and the ships it spawns?

But once Asami was given stuff to do, she was pretty awesome. Not quite as awesome as General Iroh II, but still up there.

Yes, in the last few episodes Asami did get more to do and in some cases was pretty cool about it, but she still never really had any depth. But the fact that the two female main characters in that show were, to one another, primarily romantic rivals also says a lot about the approach the Legend of Korra took; the Last Airbender demonstrated that two female characters could have a rivalry that had absolutely nothing to do with romance or men at all - when Toph joined the Gaang, she and Katara had a clash regarding their approaches to the group and philosophies about life and what they were doing, and the manner by which they resolved it was between themselves, organically - in fact the attempts by Aang and Sokka to fix things were comically bad and failed tremendously. That there was no such organic, believable relationship at any point between Asami and Korra was, I think, a huge failure; it felt very contrived to me, to generate drama, rather than to show character growth.

 

[Chilari]

Does anyone think that the reason female characters are so popular in urban fantasy because it's "modern" and reflects modern values while traditional fantasy often has that patriarchal idea in our heads even when completely off-world or in a supposedly non-patriarchal society?

An interesting question. Are so many fantasy worlds patriarchal because it is realistic, based upon biological needs and differences, for a patriarchy to develop in a society that lacks social and technological advancement? Or are they patriarchal because that is what we see not only in our own world's history but also to a lesser extent in the modern world, and thus we reflect this bias in our fantasy?

With what I've been writing recently, I'm trying to develop worlds where there is a degree of equality, still with some gender roles but without the same kind of division historically seen on Earth. I want to write women with more agency; in my WIP, the protagonist is female and the cult leader villain is too. I've got a variety of male and female characters, including scientists, cult members, bounty hunters, protesters, armchair activists, city guards and so on. We'll see how it turns out but I see no reason it can't work. I don't want to write tired old "female character rebels against patriarchy" stories, I just want to write stories where patriarchy isn't holding me back.

 

[Mindfire]

Yes, in the last few episodes Asami did get more to do and in some cases was pretty cool about it, but she still never really had any depth. But the fact that the two female main characters in that show were, to one another, primarily romantic rivals also says a lot about the approach the Legend of Korra took; the Last Airbender demonstrated that two female characters could have a rivalry that had absolutely nothing to do with romance or men at all - when Toph joined the Gaang, she and Katara had a clash regarding their approaches to the group and philosophies about life and what they were doing, and the manner by which they resolved it was between themselves, organically - in fact the attempts by Aang and Sokka to fix things were comically bad and failed tremendously. That there was no such organic, believable relationship at any point between Asami and Korra was, I think, a huge failure; it felt very contrived to me, to generate drama, rather than to show character growth.

Well consider the audience. The original Avatar show was aimed (for the most part) at kids age 10-15. Legend of Korra is clearly attempt to target the exact same fans who have grown older and are now proper teenagers. Plus, a large part of the Avatar fanbase was and still is female. And what do teenage girls want? LOVE TRIANGLES OF COURSE!

 

[Mindfire]

An interesting question. Are so many fantasy worlds patriarchal because it is realistic, based upon biological needs and differences, for a patriarchy to develop in a society that lacks social and technological advancement? Or are they patriarchal because that is what we see not only in our own world's history but also to a lesser extent in the modern world, and thus we reflect this bias in our fantasy?

With what I've been writing recently, I'm trying to develop worlds where there is a degree of equality, still with some gender roles but without the same kind of division historically seen on Earth. I want to write women with more agency; in my WIP, the protagonist is female and the cult leader villain is too. I've got a variety of male and female characters, including scientists, cult members, bounty hunters, protesters, armchair activists, city guards and so on. We'll see how it turns out but I see no reason it can't work. I don't want to write tired old "female character rebels against patriarchy" stories, I just want to write stories where patriarchy isn't holding me back.

While we're discussing this, I'd like to say I think the word patriarchy gets a bad rap. I associate the word patriarch with people like the heroes of the Abrahamic faiths. People like Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I also associate the word patriarchy with a society centered around family groups, which isn't in itself a bad thing. One of the ethnic groups from my work, the Mavarians, are a patriarchal society in this sense. Family is a huge part of their culture and they're mostly governed by tribal councils. But none of this implies that their society is inherently demeaning to women. Women can lead their families as matrons and a number of women sit on the Arch Council (highest tribal council and legislative body) and are well-respected. Can we find some other word to pillory?

 

[Chilari]

Well consider the audience. The original Avatar show was aimed (for the most part) at kids age 10-15. Legend of Korra is clearly attempt to target the exact same fans who have grown older and are now proper teenagers. Plus, a large part of the Avatar fanbase was and still is female. And what do teenage girls want? LOVE TRIANGLES OF COURSE!

I wish networks and studios would get over the notion that romance - and indeed love triangles - are the only way to interest female audiences.

I guess in a way that's why I write what I write, and why I avoid romances. I want to tell an interesting story involving women with agency without needing to rely on romance to increase the drama.

 

[Mindfire]

I wish networks and studios would get over the notion that romance - and indeed love triangles - are the only way to interest female audiences.

I guess in a way that's why I write what I write, and why I avoid romances. I want to tell an interesting story involving women with agency without needing to rely on romance to increase the drama.

In part I blame the shippers and fan-ficcers from the last time around. Avatar shipping grew to legendary proportions, and thus romance was a major part of Korra season 1 when it didn't need to be. Hopefully season 2 will be different.

 

[Mindfire]

I wish networks and studios would get over the notion that romance - and indeed love triangles - are the only way to interest female audiences.

I guess in a way that's why I write what I write, and why I avoid romances. I want to tell an interesting story involving women with agency without needing to rely on romance to increase the drama.

In part I blame the shippers and fan-ficcers from the last time around. Avatar shipping grew to legendary proportions, and thus romance was a major part of Korra season 1 when it didn't need to be. Hopefully season 2 will be different.

 

[Feo Takahari]

While we're discussing this, I'd like to say I think the word patriarchy gets a bad rap. I associate the word patriarch with people like the heroes of the Abrahamic faiths. People like Abraham, Moses, David, etc. I also associate the word patriarchy with a society centered around family groups, which isn't in itself a bad thing. One of the ethnic groups from my work, the Mavarians, are a patriarchal society in this sense. Family is a huge part of their culture and they're mostly governed by tribal councils. But none of this implies that their society is inherently demeaning to women. Women can lead their families as matrons and a number of women sit on the Arch Council (highest tribal council and legislative body) and are well-respected. Can we find some other word to pillory?

"Patriarchy" is a word for rule by men. Rule by women is "matriarchy." I'm not sure of the "chy" for kinship groups, which are what you seem to be referring to.

 

[Mindfire]

Doesn't patriarchy come from the Latin pater, meaning "father"? And what is a father if not the head of a family? Rule by men over women would be more accurately called a virarchy or something to that effect.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Doesn't patriarchy come from the Latin pater, meaning "father"? And what is a father if not the head of a family? Rule by men over women would be more accurately called a virarchy or something to that effect.

I had that PM marathon with you, so I think I understand what you mean, but you REALLY need to clarify that for everyone else. Taken on its own, that post sounds like you're saying the oldest male in a family should control everyone else, and those posters who aren't old males aren't necessarily going to respond well to that.

 

[Mythopoet]

Let's keep this discussion about women in fantasy, please people. We shouldn't need to constantly remind you and while it would be sad to do so, we will lock this thread if it becomes too troublesome.

Eh, don't worry. I'm going to bow out at this point. The only interesting parts of this thread were when it was off topic. When it stays on topic it's just people rehashing the same old tiresomely "modern" opinions and agreeing with each other. This thread has given me some fodder for thought though and I'll probably explore the topic of women in fiction (and in real life) on my blog a bit. Don't read it though. I doubt any of you will appreciate my opinions and beliefs. After all, the opinions of women who don't fall in line with the feminist agenda don't really count.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

I'll probably explore the topic of women in fiction (and in real life) on my blog a bit.

Your blog (as per your sig) appears to have gone walkabout.

 

[Ophiucha]

The English Language: where the words are made up and the roots don't matter.

As a word nerd, I'll add that the expanded use of the word mostly just originates from lazy anthropologists and historians who like to draw a good analogue across cultures and call it 'human nature'. This happens a lot, and explains why so many of the words we have are technically (by the definition/root) more vague than they are when put in use. If you cared, though, some do use the words 'androcracy' and 'phallocracy', though not universally. Patriarchy is definitely the most common choice.

 

[Chilari]

Eh, don't worry. I'm going to bow out at this point. The only interesting parts of this thread were when it was off topic. When it stays on topic it's just people rehashing the same old tiresomely "modern" opinions and agreeing with each other. This thread has given me some fodder for thought though and I'll probably explore the topic of women in fiction (and in real life) on my blog a bit. Don't read it though. I doubt any of you will appreciate my opinions and beliefs. After all, the opinions of women who don't fall in line with the feminist agenda don't really count.

If you feel we are rehashing modern feminist opinions on fantasy characters, feel free to jump in with your own views, provided it remains within the stated topic of women in fantasy.

 

[Mythopoet]

If you feel we are rehashing modern feminist opinions on fantasy characters, feel free to jump in with your own views, provided it remains within the stated topic of women in fantasy.

Eh, doesn't seem to be worth it because this thread seems to be all about how bad it is for women in fiction and I really think it's just not that bad.

Your blog (as per your sig) appears to have gone walkabout.

oops. Forgot I changed the domain. Fixed.