Women in fantasy

[Zero Angel]

Holy crap I cannot stand Sansa for all the reasons I thought everyone else here would detest her too.

So the moral of Sansa's story is put up with your lot in life until you luck into somehow coming out being able to manipulate people? Is that what some people are implying here? Because this is the sort of thing that women were only ever supposed to do throughout history. Let the men take center stage and then be the voice behind the curtain. I'm not saying it's not a realistic character, but she makes me sick.

I thought MAYBE, just MAYBE, she would be kind to Tyrion in more than the stereotypical "women are nice to everyone to their face" bullcrap.

I stopped reading when GRR Martin dropped half the characters from one of the novels (whichever one that was), so maybe she got better after that, but I couldn't stand Sansa and I couldn't stand the churning of my stomach of Littlefinger's handling of her or everything else. Even when she has facts thrown in her face she still lives in this denial of reality.

I am going to be sick just thinking about how frustrating I found her chapters.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't get the Sansa hate. Whether someone actively likes her or not is a different story, I guess. Here's an interesting discussion of the character:

In Defense of Sansa Stark | Feminist Fiction

 

[Penpilot]

So the moral of Sansa's story is put up with your lot in life until you luck into somehow coming out being able to manipulate people? Is that what some people are implying here? Because this is the sort of thing that women were only ever supposed to do throughout history. Let the men take center stage and then be the voice behind the curtain. I'm not saying it's not a realistic character, but she makes me sick.

I don't know. Did you take into account that Sansa is, as of the fourth novel, three-and-ten. Thirteen. At thirteen she's had to deal with the loss of her parents (one whose head was literally chopped off in front of her), her siblings, her home and everyone she's ever known in the course of what? Two years? On top of that she's has to learn to live in a hostile environment where she's beaten and degraded and, in the eyes of many, just a way to seize control of the North, a prize.

After enduring all that, which IMHO would reduce many adults into a blubbering ball of goo curled up in the fetal position, she's managed to keep her dignity, her sense of self, in addition to sticking her neck out to save a drunken knight.

Not bad for a thirteen-year-old.

This is how I'd characterize her moral. Life doesn't always work out the way you expect. There will be pain and there will be tragedy, and things may seem out of your control. But how you deal with things, how you learn from them, and how you choose to let them change you or not, ultimately defines who you are.

Notice even after witnessing very bad things by very bad people she expects the best out of those she meets. Maybe that's naivety. Maybe it's stupidity. Maybe it's just because she isn't a cynic yet.

Again, she thirteen. Lots of kids that age are a bit clueless and give too much respect/power to authority figures and haven't found their voice yet. But Sansa's learning her lessons, and if she learns them well, I'm willing to bet when she's like twenty, she'll be someone with some serious clout.

 

[Devor]

I don't have any animosity for Sansa. I just don't get the love (or the hate). She seems like the typical character people have been complaining about in this thread. Worse, it very much feels like GRRM is telling her story to mock her and what she stands for more than anything.

I see Joffrey, and Cersei, and the Hound, and the Tyrells, and Tyrion, and Littlefinger teaching Sansa how foolish she is and how cruel and manipulative everyone else is, but I don't see her growing in a way that will help her to approach the manipulative powers of any of these characters.

With all this teaching, she has so far figured out exactly one detail for herself: That a lesser Lord was being paid to act the way he was acting. Maybe that's enough to show an arc that might lead towards giving Sansa her moment, but I don't think it'll be enough to make her a real player in the Game of Thrones.

Everything is happening to her, not of her own doing. I don't think she's there to grow; she's there to show us how cruel, manipulative and badass everyone else is.

 

[Kit]

I don't know. Did you take into account that Sansa is, as of the fourth novel, three-and-ten. Thirteen. At thirteen she's had to deal with the loss of her parents (one whose head was literally chopped off in front of her), her siblings, her home and everyone she's ever known in the course of what? Two years? On top of that she's has to learn to live in a hostile environment where she's beaten and degraded and, in the eyes of many, just a way to seize control of the North, a prize.

Arya went through the exact same thing, but handled it much differently.

I'm a Sansa-basher.... she's cowardly and passive (always) and self-centered (usually). She embodies a large number of negative so-called "feminine" traits that irritate the crap out of me.

I have more respect for Cersei, for all that the woman is self-centered and EVIL (ALWAYS!). At least Cersei has a backbone and is not passive and helpless.

 

[Ophiucha]

Sansa is, by no means, the icon of feminism in the show (not that any one character is really ideal, either within the show or in a meta sense as they are analysed by the way the writers handled them), but I think she is important because she is a major character who is still what her society deems feminine, with all that entails. I often find that 'strong female characters' are, in many ways, women who embody their (and our) society's masculine traits. They have masculine professions, masculine personalities, and while they might not be masculine in appearance, they are often masculine in the worst ways otherwise. By this I mean... I kind of find the way many of these characters are written to be a bit misogynistic? Like, writers will take a strong woman and emphasize that she's "not like the other girls" and have her say things like "other women and their pretty dresses and their pretty boys". And while having a wide range of female characters is great, it just sort of emphasizes this "boys good; girls bad" dichotomy, just switching it up to say "feminine bad; masculine good" while ignoring everything in the (fictional or otherwise) society that teaches girls to be feminine and boys to be masculine.

So I like Sansa because she's a Stark who names her huge bloodthirsty wolf 'Lady', who still likes pretty boys even though she's learned that they're not all nice, who was taught from birth to be a perfect lady and sticks with what her father told her no matter how bad things get, who has lost everything - her family, her home, her one chance at power (when Margaery replaces her as Joffrey's fiancée) - and still can smile, who takes what small acts of rebellion she can without acting out of place. She's passive, she's 'weak', but she is still a fully developed character. And while I love a good warrior woman as much as the next girl, I like seeing the women who are so often ignored. Because our stories prioritize the women who are like men, but throughout history most women have been... like women. It's what they're taught and how they're raised, yet it's only the exceptions who make it into the stories. I like Sansa because, yes, she's a very typical woman. She doesn't poison her lovers or demand to be named heir or cut her hair short and take up arms. She's every other woman in Westeros who GRRM never even bothers to name.

“Knights die in battle,” Catelyn reminded her. Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. “As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them.”

I feel like Sansa is a rare exception. I appreciate it. I understand why you wouldn't like her character; in a series of political manipulations, assassinations, massacres, frost giants, the undead, and dragons, a little girl who seems little more than a pawn for others to play with is hardly going to be anyone's focus. But I am very grateful that she is such a prominent character in the story despite that.

 

[Philip Overby]

Mild spoilers?

I didn't realize there were such diverse opinions on Sansa. Interesting. I agree that on the surface she is exactly what is problematic with the "damsel in distress." But as the story goes on, she starts to understand how to play the game better than anyone else. She's sitting at the learning tree of some of the best master manipulators in all of the realm: Cersei, Margery, Tyrion, and Littlefinger. While Arya trains to be some sort of master assassin, Sansa in turn is soaking in how to play the political game from some of the best. I'm sure that's intentional. How it will play into the overall story is something I'm interested to see.

She also starts to see that all pretty knights and handsome kings aren't what the stories told her. She learns that ugly, horrifying men like the Hound are the true knights.

The article Steerpike linked above is a must-read for anyone who hates (or for that matter loves) Sansa. Maybe you can glean while others appreciate her more.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

We're also wildly off topic, guys, so here's a topic: female goons, zombies, background characters. Anyone else notice this? You have a hoarde of zombies, odds are 80% of them will be (ex-?)men. You go into a dungeon in your standard RPG and often all of the generic barbarians and bandits will be men. (In the Bethesda [Elder Scrolls, Fallout] games, they often have a trait that gives you a 10% bonus against the opposite sex. Since I always play as a girl, I always pick this trait since like 7 out of 10 enemies in the game are male.) Your storm troopers, red shirts, etc. - almost always men. I get why females aren't always major characters (even if I disagree with it), but I can't fathom why they turn up so rarely among the nameless drones of lambs being brought to the slaughter, you know?

I saw a review for a REALLY creepy survival horror game that took place in a in a defunct in a defunct insane asylum that had female adversaries. Granted, they were scantily clad, creepy, faceless female adversaries in nurses uniforms, but partial credit is better than none, huh? But, yeah, still lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Penpilot]

Arya went through the exact same thing, but handled it much differently.

Yes, but notice how the traits that many admire, and which people point to as being strong traits, gets her and others into trouble time and time again. That's a bit of naivety/stupidity on her part to pair up with Sansa's. To me they're the two sides of the same coin. Both have flaws that get them into situations where they're over their heads by action or inaction. I can't remember specifics, but I'm sure there are a few innocent people who would be alive if they never met Arya.

I often find that 'strong female characters' are, in many ways, women who embody their (and our) society's masculine traits. They have masculine professions, masculine personalities, and while they might not be masculine in appearance, they are often masculine in the worst ways otherwise. By this I mean... I kind of find the way many of these characters are written to be a bit misogynistic? Like, writers will take a strong woman and emphasize that she's "not like the other girls" and have her say things like "other women and their pretty dresses and their pretty boys". And while having a wide range of female characters is great, it just sort of emphasizes this "boys good; girls bad" dichotomy, just switching it up to say "feminine bad; masculine good" while ignoring everything in the (fictional or otherwise) society that teaches girls to be feminine and boys to be masculine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this. If a female character punches somebody out, generally speaking, why are they automatically assumed to be a strong female character? Many probably think Arya and Brienne are strong female characters because they can kick arse in the male playground. I don't think that's true. I think it's their mental make up, their ability to endure and overcome the hardships that come their way that make them strong. I mean what if Brienne with all her physical skills intact went home to an abusive husband and withered in his presence? If that were the case despite her being a kick arse knight, she'd still be a weak character.


Sansa plays the game on her turf, politics and the court. She doesn't take up arms because it'd be foolish. She's useless on the battlefield. And I don't think she should be judged on those terms. Judge her on how she preforms in the court when she gets to play by the rules she knows.

 

[Steerpike]

Some people assume the only way to have a strong female character is to basically write a male character but call the character female. That's a mistake in and of itself. It's not like you can't have a strong female character operating within traditional gender roles.

 

[Zero Angel]

It's not Sansa's femininity that irks me, so the article linked didn't really have anything to offer me (although I'm concerned when you have fans that want characters to be raped—That's not an appropriate punishment). What irks me more than anything is her stupidity and naivete. Her complete and utter denial of the real world for the world she wants it to be. She is a standard-fantasy girl in a dark-fantasy and it is completely insane. Maybe that's Martin's real inspiration for her character: let's take a girl from a normal fantasy and throw her in the crap.

Spoiler: ASOIAF: Alayne Stone and Robert Arryn

And the complete and utter defenselessness drives me beyond insane and made the entire series too much to stomach. Even tolerating the little kid's molestation of her drove a spike through my eye when I read the words. Seriously? She's so defenseless some little brat (Robert Arryn) is allowed to molest her at his every whim?

A lot of people parade ASOIAF as being super-great with all these great female characters. But you have all these great female characters being tortured, maimed, raped, used and otherwise abused. No one has any problems with that? It's like he builds these characters up just to screw them over.

Again, people say, "Well she's 13", but you're probably thinking of modern 13 year olds. 13 was pretty much an adult in medieval times (which ASOIAF is pseudo-medieval at least), and 13 with an education and having all these horrible things happening to her? I expect SOME growth unless she's secretly a moron like Hodor.

And actually, I could tolerate all of the other crap, but the complete lack of growth (at least, that's how I characterize it, apparently other people are characterizing the same thing as having considerable growth) makes her annoying as a character and unbearable as a POV. The complete lack of agency is also unbearable as a POV.

I know we got off on the wrong foot since she was such a jerk to her sister and her sister's dog, but I had half-expected her to realize RIGHT THEN that Joffrey was a jag, and no, instead she blamed Arya for everything and acted her usual spoiled self.

 

[Kit]

I often find that 'strong female characters' are, in many ways, women who embody their (and our) society's masculine traits. They have masculine professions, masculine personalities, and while they might not be masculine in appearance, they are often masculine in the worst ways otherwise .

I reject many presumptions of what qualifies as "masculine" and "feminine".

I like a lot of things that traditional purists might categorize as "masculine"- martial arts and motorcycles being two of the most glaring. But since I am a woman, am I "masculine" because I like motorcycles? Or is motorcycling becoming more "feminine" because I and other women like it? Or is it the categorizations themselves that are flawed? I pick "C". Whatever I do or am is feminine, because I am female. Or better yet, let's stop pigeonholing every concept on earth according to some whacked out gender stereotypes.

 

[Feo Takahari]

On the abuse thing: I maintain that it's entirely possible to turn a long-suffering wife into a strong female character.

 

[Ophiucha]

@Zero, I definitely don't think Martin is highly progressive from a meta stand point, but as his books are arguably the most popular fantasy series to have a relatively large number of female characters with diverse enough personalities and roles, it's kind of the easiest to talk about? Like, we could have a discussion about the role of femininity in Paladin of Souls, a very valid discussion at that without any of the 'also the author writes in a lot of awful crap', but then I think only a couple of the people in this thread right now have ever read it. Even on a forum specifically for fantasy, it's hard to assume that everyone has read or seen anything besides Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire, and having a discussion about LOTR would last a few sentences for all the women get to do in that story (even in the movies, expanded though their roles are).

@A.E. Lowan, Hmmm... Silent Hill, maybe? There are honestly a couple of games that fit the bill for that description, which is weird, since the description is 'zombie sexy nurses'. Oh, video game industry. You do your thing.

@Kit, from a personal level, I agree. I don't think of myself as less feminine for my interest in blacksmithing or mechanics. But there is still a 'societal norm' about these things - particularly in fantasy stories where these things are often very clear cut by nature of the worldbuilding process. And I just don't like the way that the standard 'strong female character' is almost always into blacksmithing and mechanics and never gardening or needle work. Sure, if she's the main character of a standard fantasy epic, being in some way... fighting-capable is perhaps a necessity. But, hey, cooking requires some serious knife skills and skirts are easier to lift up to reveal a dagger. But they tend to be more interested in whatever the society's standard masculine endeavours are, and they tend to have back stories like 'I was so bored with a woman's life, cooking and cleaning, so I ran away from home and disguised myself as a man' and just once I'd like to see one that was like 'I loved cooking and cleaning but one day my house was invaded so I shoved my butcher's knife into his shoulder and beat him to death with a broom stick'.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Speaking to Feo's point, there is actually a long history of a taking an abused woman an putting her into a position of incredible inner strength. Take the classic story "A Jury of Her Peers," for example. I don't know how many of our folks have read it, but it provides an excellent example of subversive rebellion against crushing tyranny.

 

[Philip Overby]

It's not Sansa's femininity that irks me, so the article linked didn't really have anything to offer me (although I'm concerned when you have fans that want characters to be raped—That's not an appropriate punishment). What irks me more than anything is her stupidity and naivete. Her complete and utter denial of the real world for the world she wants it to be. She is a standard-fantasy girl in a dark-fantasy and it is completely insane. Maybe that's Martin's real inspiration for her character: let's take a girl from a normal fantasy and throw her in the crap.

I don't see the difference between what Sansa endures and what other characters endure. Almost every character has horrible things happen to them. Take Theon for instance...

The series is popular for a reason. People love to see struggling people overcome the odds. Sometimes Martin doesn't allow this, making it even more heart-breaking.

There are other "standard" fantasy type characters in the series. I mean Eddard is a man with unshakable honor. Pretty standard in fantasy. He reminds me a lot of Lancelot in that he has a flaw that causes him lots of problems.

A lot of people parade ASOIAF as being super-great with all these great female characters. But you have all these great female characters being tortured, maimed, raped, used and otherwise abused. No one has any problems with that? It's like he builds these characters up just to screw them over.

You could say the same for the male characters. I actually DO have a problem with these characters suffering so horribly. That's why I hope they pull through. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I think being lulled into a false sense of "good will triumph" often interests readers of the series and watchers of the show. The "anything can happen" way the story unfolds makes readers engaged. The main thing Martin does that is successful is not that he has this dark, grimy, horrible world where horrible things happen to people. It's that he makes people care about what happens to the characters. He does this with different techniques. Sansa may be the type of character that evokes a horror movie victim: "Why doesn't she run? Geez!" She tends to be more infuriating in the first book. Like another person said, her civility is her weapon that she hones. She doesn't fight, so she has to survive in other ways. I'm hoping her arc pays off in the end. If it does, it'll be by far one of the most satisfying. To see Sansa evolve from a naive girl is akin to watching someone grow up before your eyes.

@Kit: In the realm of Martin's world, there are certain notions of what men do and what women do. Women don't rule. Cersei often bemoans this problem. Whereas Dany is a female leader who doesn't care about what the world thinks of these preconceived notions. She rejects them wholeheartedly.

I think in the real , modern world it's a whole different issue. In the realm of the story world, the definitions make sense in context of the world they're living in.

 

[Penpilot]

Again, people say, "Well she's 13", but you're probably thinking of modern 13 year olds. 13 was pretty much an adult in medieval times (which ASOIAF is pseudo-medieval at least), and 13 with an education and having all these horrible things happening to her? I expect SOME growth unless she's secretly a moron like Hodor.

Thirteen may be considered adult back in medieval times, but it doesn't mean their mental and emotional development was any greater than that of a modern 13yr-old. As for growth. Either you're not far enough in to the story or you're not seeing it, because it's there. It's not as overt as shouting "No" when before she was shouting "Yes". Just from the first book to the second book there's a dramatic change to her emotionally, cracks in her wall of naivety.

I reject many presumptions of what qualifies as "masculine" and "feminine".

I like a lot of things that traditional purists might categorize as "masculine"- martial arts and motorcycles being two of the most glaring. But since I am a woman, am I "masculine" because I like motorcycles?

No this doesn't mean you're masculine. It just means you're interested in things that are traditionally considered masculine. Just like babysitting may be considered a traditionally feminine task, me liking to do it doesn't mean I'm any more feminine. You can reject the traditional labels, but it doesn't erase them. They've been there a long time, and it's going to take some time for them to fade.

 

[Chessie]

Sansa is 13...but so was Dany when she was married by force and look at all the crap she had to deal with. The difference between the two is night and day. The little I did read about Sansa, it seems to me I only got a peek at her before she grows. Although in the same book, Dany exploded with self-awareness and survival power. If anyone has survived, its her. Granted, everyone matures differently but still, both girls were pampered growing up and they turned out quite differently. The one thing they do have in common though is manipulation of men, which seems to be a theme in ASOIF.

I think femininity is being confused for weakness of character in Sansa's situation. Being a lady myself, femininity isn't just about minding your manners, smelling good and looking pretty. Its about being empowered, not a doormat. The argument can be made that the world of Westeros limits women, but when most of them are using sex to get what they want that's surely irritating.

One of the reasons I stopped at book one was because of the way women are treated. Even badass dragon-lady reached self-awareness through finding herself sexually...and at 13 years old...I'm shocked that people are ok with that. Everyone I know (except for my husband oddly enough) is wrapped up in ASOIF. Then they get pissed when someone dies. Why not get pissed about all the other crap that happens in Martin's world? Rape? Torture? Child abuse? Is that ok?

Anyway, the point of this thread is about the direction of women in fantasy. I say there can still be heroines that wield power and are ladies. Weakness does not mean femininity. Women bear children, raise families, go through all sorts of hormonal crap all the time. We're strong and for once I'd like to read about a woman, that isn't butch or manipulative, be a heroine in fantasy that shows females are capable of using their brains.

Edit: I think Dany is just as feminine as Sansa, even if she's a "fighter" type of character.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't get the Sansa hate. Whether someone actively likes her or not is a different story, I guess. Here's an interesting discussion of the character:

In Defense of Sansa Stark | Feminist Fiction

I read that article and I don't know why, but it makes me want to hate Sansa out of pure contrariness. lol

 

[glutton]

I mean what if Brienne with all her physical skills intact went home to an abusive husband and withered in his presence? If that were the case despite her being a kick arse knight, she'd still be a weak character.

Yes, but that would be a rather unusual character in the first place...