kennyc
Inkling
Yes, we keep hearing about your take on this. Others have a different perspective, a different opinion, including me.
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Writing Characters the Reader Cares About….
- Thread starter Heliotrope
- Start date
Yes, we keep hearing about your take on this. Others have a different perspective, a different opinion, including me.
- Thread starter
- #42
This is what was happening with my and FifthView about the Night Crawler character, but, we both found the character intriguing enough to carry on with the film. I saw the character as sympathetic, FifthView saw him as a weasel. However, there was enough 'strangeness' about him (geeky, skinny, nasal voice, slicked back hair, unassuming demeanour, stealing construction material… and yet, he could take down a large security guard no problem.) There was enough questions brought up in the viewer about this character "What is going on with this guy/" That he was interesting.
That is the type of stuff I want to analyze. I need to break it down and see what was specifically done so I can use the same strategies. I think it is a science, personally.
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FifthView
Vala
Heliotrope:
Here's a great tool that Brandon Sanderson uses for developing engaging characters:
Writing Excuses 9.13: Three Pronged Character Development.
I think it's important to think in terms of engaging characters, rather than only likeable characters. A summary of his approach:
Each character can be thought of as having three aspects, each falling on a scale, and they are
Characters can be unlikeable (say, "2" of ten on the likeability scale) but have high competence and proactivity and still be engaging. A lot of villains may be like this.
Characters can be highly proactive and likeable but lower in competence and still be engaging. I think he used Indiana Jones as an example of this.
A character arc for a whole novel will usually involve a little sliding of these scales. A character may start out with a low competency but grow more competent as the novel progresses. Or he may start out unlikeable and end up more likeable. Etc.
The above podcast is a great introduction to this tool for thinking about character development. There are three follow-up podcasts addressing in more detail how to adjust each scale:
Writing Excuses 9.25: Adjusting Character Sympathy
Writing Excuses 9.26: Adjusting Character Competence
Writing Excuses 9.32: Adjusting Character Proactivity
Here's a great tool that Brandon Sanderson uses for developing engaging characters:
Writing Excuses 9.13: Three Pronged Character Development.
I think it's important to think in terms of engaging characters, rather than only likeable characters. A summary of his approach:
Each character can be thought of as having three aspects, each falling on a scale, and they are
- Competence
- Proactivity
- Likeability/Sympathy
Characters can be unlikeable (say, "2" of ten on the likeability scale) but have high competence and proactivity and still be engaging. A lot of villains may be like this.
Characters can be highly proactive and likeable but lower in competence and still be engaging. I think he used Indiana Jones as an example of this.
A character arc for a whole novel will usually involve a little sliding of these scales. A character may start out with a low competency but grow more competent as the novel progresses. Or he may start out unlikeable and end up more likeable. Etc.
The above podcast is a great introduction to this tool for thinking about character development. There are three follow-up podcasts addressing in more detail how to adjust each scale:
Writing Excuses 9.25: Adjusting Character Sympathy
Writing Excuses 9.26: Adjusting Character Competence
Writing Excuses 9.32: Adjusting Character Proactivity
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BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
Yes, we keep hearing about your take on this. Others have a different perspective, a different opinion, including me.
You're as free to share your opinion as I am to share mine.
Speaking of which, I am a little unclear on exactly where you stand:
1. Are you saying that authors cannot manipulate emotions or that they shouldn't? (Keeping in mind the stipulation that, obviously, no one can manipulate everyone in the same manner. What works for one person will not necessarily work on another person.)
2. Are you saying that you personally don't want authors to try to manipulate your emotions or you don't think that your target audience does?
Thanks.
Brian
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
So applying FifthView's excellent post, the character ranked high in both Competence and Proactivity, but low in likeability/sympathy, which made him engaging.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
FifthView
Vala
Exactly. It's a very cool tool for thinking about characters.
- Thread starter
- #47
Yeah, that does make sense. I will have a listen to those pod casts today.
PS: fifthview I like your signature. That is so true for me too! I'm the type that needs to talk things through (or type things out) to really grasp what I'm thinking. Most of the time I re-read what I typed and do a palm/forehead slap. I go back to edit my posts all the time!
PS: fifthview I like your signature. That is so true for me too! I'm the type that needs to talk things through (or type things out) to really grasp what I'm thinking. Most of the time I re-read what I typed and do a palm/forehead slap. I go back to edit my posts all the time!
FifthView
Vala
Heliotrope: I added the signature because...well I'm a little like you. Sometimes I am brainstorming in comments, sometimes they are even muddled, and sometimes a lot of time needs to pass before I develop a crystal-clear way of thinking about these topics.
- Thread starter
- #49
Yep. And sometimes I press 'post' instead of having a cup of tea. As noted earlier.
Mythopoet
Auror
I didn't say it was. I said it was personal.
And well, after looking at the reviews on Amazon for your book... I guess if you're getting feedback like that you should do something to change your approach to characters, whatever it is.
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BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
Understood.
It's just that your view on this particular subject seems so far out of line with what I expect from readers ...
Yep. I had another developmental editor take a pass at it looking solely at the character likeability, and I made a lot of changes based both on that input and my thoughts. I haven't gotten any new reviews since posting the revisions, but I'm hoping they'll be a lot more positive when they start rolling in.
kennyc
Inkling
Yeah, I think the main thing about characters is to make them literally 'characters/caricatures' -- something intriguing/interesting to engage the reader such that they want to learn more about what drives the character or makes them what they are and this in some ways can be a 'boundary' as we discussed in another thread....A driven character may be more of a genre character while 'what makes a character do what they do/their background/thought processes/etc' may be more of a literary character....but of course there is full and complete spectrum of overlap.
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Miskatonic
Auror
What if your story starts with a character necessary to get the story rolling, but ultimately is not overly important to the story as a whole?
kennyc
Inkling
I'd suggest one of two possibilities. Either your started in the wrong place or you are writing the wrong story.
Of course there was.....(from the Elements of Fiction - Plot): "Melville wrote a large chunk of Moby Dick thinking that the pivotal figure was going to be a man named (I'm not kidding) Bulkington, who's then abruptly washed overboard the first day the Pequod leaves harbor and is never heard of again."
- Thread starter
- #55
I'm no expert (obviously) but I tend to go with Chekov in these cases. "If you are going to show a gun in the first scene it had better go off in the next scene." So, basically, this goes for stuff as well as characters. I like my stories to be pretty streamlined though.
Obviously there are exceptions, like in Superman when we see his parents put him in the shuttle and then we never see them again.
One exercise I read that I do that works really well is:
Make a chart showing all your characters in the scene and the role they have (why are they there?) then see if you can combine any of them, so one character is taking on multiple roles.
This sometimes makes for more dynamic characters, and a more streamlined approach.
Obviously there are exceptions, like in Superman when we see his parents put him in the shuttle and then we never see them again.
One exercise I read that I do that works really well is:
Make a chart showing all your characters in the scene and the role they have (why are they there?) then see if you can combine any of them, so one character is taking on multiple roles.
This sometimes makes for more dynamic characters, and a more streamlined approach.
C
Chessie
Guest
Interesting discussion here. I'm just adding in my two cents to say that I believe it's crucial to show character right away from the first paragraph. One resource I recommend a lot are Brandon Sanderson's youtube videos on Write About Dragons. In the older lectures, he thoroughly explains how to construct a paragraph. He says to start with character thought/emotion (putting us in character's head), action, then dialogue, etc. Or something like that (excuse me, it's been a while and also I'm just having my coffee).
The idea he gives is that constructing a paragraph in this way allows the reader to stay with the character as you build momentum in your story. This doesn't necessarily mean writing an action filled OP. Every story is different and how you introduce character will depend on the type of story you're telling. But from what I've learned, here's a list of things that I include in the op scene/first page:
-Situation. I find it helpful to know my ending when I start writing because that gives me a hint as to how the character begins her journey and what her life's circumstances are.
-Story theme. This is a big one because it carries the entire story. Theme provides me usually with either my first sentence or situation. More on this one later.
-Character flaw. Second most important one. Introducing flaw right away let's readers know that MC has some personal things about her that hold her back in life. This flaw is especially going to hold her back from achieving her story goal, which I don't introduce until a bit later but flaw helps foreshadow that story goal.
-Conflict. This is one of the hardest things for me and just yesterday downloaded three craft books on conflict because I suck so much at it. But yeah, the conflict here comes from the character's flaw and the flaw's relation to story theme.
-Setting. This one is easier than the rest for me but yes, readers need to know where they are without info dumps.
These are just a few things to help you out there, Heliotrope. Back to story theme, I find it helpful because it provides moral depth to the story. I'm not out to teach lessons, just put questions in readers' minds. It also helps to bring out character since her flaw will be related directly to theme and story goal. Anyway, sorry for the long post but hopefully this helps.
The idea he gives is that constructing a paragraph in this way allows the reader to stay with the character as you build momentum in your story. This doesn't necessarily mean writing an action filled OP. Every story is different and how you introduce character will depend on the type of story you're telling. But from what I've learned, here's a list of things that I include in the op scene/first page:
-Situation. I find it helpful to know my ending when I start writing because that gives me a hint as to how the character begins her journey and what her life's circumstances are.
-Story theme. This is a big one because it carries the entire story. Theme provides me usually with either my first sentence or situation. More on this one later.
-Character flaw. Second most important one. Introducing flaw right away let's readers know that MC has some personal things about her that hold her back in life. This flaw is especially going to hold her back from achieving her story goal, which I don't introduce until a bit later but flaw helps foreshadow that story goal.
-Conflict. This is one of the hardest things for me and just yesterday downloaded three craft books on conflict because I suck so much at it. But yeah, the conflict here comes from the character's flaw and the flaw's relation to story theme.
-Setting. This one is easier than the rest for me but yes, readers need to know where they are without info dumps.
These are just a few things to help you out there, Heliotrope. Back to story theme, I find it helpful because it provides moral depth to the story. I'm not out to teach lessons, just put questions in readers' minds. It also helps to bring out character since her flaw will be related directly to theme and story goal. Anyway, sorry for the long post but hopefully this helps.
Russ
Istar
One might call that a classic cheap shot.
Reminds me of that old definition of a journalist "Someone who watches a battle from a safe distance and then kills the survivors."
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Russ
Istar
Those are interesting questions, and now you have me thinking.
Firstly, it is a modern book, written in 2009. It was successful, it made the NYT bestseller list (not sure where it peaked).
I would read it no matter what because the author is a friend of mine, but that does not really answer the question. His craft is very, very good and he does a lot of writing teaching to very good reviews.
I think the fact it was a series character really helps keep interest up. Plus the action sequence when there is a life and death gunfight in a rare book shop and the MC is not sure who is with him or who is against him keeps you hooked.
The lesson I would take from it is that connection with a character is only one factor in keeping a reader moving deeper into your work. The other is the story posing questions to the reader that they want answered. Why are these people trying to kill this guy in his book store? What does the other shooting have to do with it? Which of these people want to kill him and why? I think posing questions is just as important in the earlier stages of the book.
For example you liked that line put in the other thread. "The third failure of our AI was catastrophic."
It tells you nothing about character, it just poses a bunch of questions that a potential spec fic audience might want read.
And if you can put both into your opening, intriguing questions and a character the reader cares about...then you got some serious mojo going.
Russ
Istar
Those are interesting questions, and now you have me thinking.
Firstly, it is a modern book, written in 2009. It was successful, it made the NYT bestseller list (not sure where it peaked).
I would read it no matter what because the author is a friend of mine, but that does not really answer the question. His craft is very, very good and he does a lot of writing teaching to very good reviews.
I think the fact it was a series character really helps keep interest up. Plus the action sequence when there is a life and death gunfight in a rare book shop and the MC is not sure who is with him or who is against him keeps you hooked.
The lesson I would take from it is that connection with a character is only one factor in keeping a reader moving deeper into your work. The other is the story posing questions to the reader that they want answered. Why are these people trying to kill this guy in his book store? What does the other shooting have to do with it? Which of these people want to kill him and why? I think posing questions is just as important in the earlier stages of the book.
For example you liked that line put in the other thread. "The third failure of our AI was catastrophic."
It tells you nothing about character, it just poses a bunch of questions that a potential spec fic audience might to know the answers to.
And if you can put both into your opening, intriguing questions and a character the reader cares about...then you got some serious mojo going.
You also make a good point about what author can get away with what. The author who wrote that book had already cracked the NYT list and had his "breakout novel." What we have to do to get published is very different than what established (or "branded") writers need to do to get their work out there. One has to be very aware of that gulf and bring a great deal of humility to one's work. I often see people posting about what a very successful author did in their book and implying they can do the same thing. There are two problems with that. Firstly, one might not have developed the skill to carry off that technique yet. Second the audience or gatekeeper is going to treat the new author differently than the established vet. It might not be fair or whatever, but it is a reality.
It is a tough balance to write within yourself, but still push the boundaries and grow as a writer. But now I am wondering way far afield...
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- Thread starter
- #60
Russ - Thanks for coming back to answer my questions! Yes, I have been reading a lot about making sure you are making the reader ask questions to keep turning pages to find answers. That in itself is almost more important that lots of action.
Chesterama - Thanks for chiming in! Your expertise is always valuable. I'm in a similar boat as you (but opposite). I read a ton of books and did a ton of research and analysis into conflict, and now I'm thinking "hmmmm, tons of conflict is great, but what if you don't have an engaging character? What makes the reader want to care about all that interesting conflict?" So now I'm ordering craft books like crazy on characterization.
Chesterama - Thanks for chiming in! Your expertise is always valuable. I'm in a similar boat as you (but opposite). I read a ton of books and did a ton of research and analysis into conflict, and now I'm thinking "hmmmm, tons of conflict is great, but what if you don't have an engaging character? What makes the reader want to care about all that interesting conflict?" So now I'm ordering craft books like crazy on characterization.
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