Writing Course

[Garren Jacobsen]

I wouldn't have been thrilled to pay for Sanderson's course, but as free lectures they are worth every penny, heh heh. But again this depends on where you are at in your writing. So much of Sanderson's lectures felt like old hat or 100 level stuff, but then I am old LOL, but I can imagine that at a more youthful stage I would've appreciated his story stuff more. When watching the lectures I tended to have an "ok, but..." whenever he talked about story. The publishing info was more interesting to me.

What in particular struck you with his story notions?

In my previous post I also didn't mention screenwriting courses at UCLA... those were worth it, because I did skip some of the intro level stuff... those would've been pointless because I didn't need them. But the upper level stuff, where you're also working with active pro screenwriters, was good stuff.

A lot of the concepts I heard about and read about started to "click" when I heard it from him. I'm not sure why. But things like making strong prose and how to do it and how to conceptualize show v tel in particular (pyramid of abstraction). He also helped me realize the power of things like the three act structure and so forth. Although the the three act thing may have been from a guest lecturer.

 

[skip.knox]

I have a couple comments regarding the nuts-and-bolts comment from Caged Maiden. She is generally right, though I think she overlooks the feedback part of most writing courses. That's where classes attend more to the how of writing. If you get a professor who writes good comments, that's pure gold.

Most subjects have this dual nature. They teach theory and method, and they teach practicum. Chem classes are more than just lecture, they also have labs. I teach history. If all you did was read history books, I would not be teaching you history. You also have to *write* history. There, my teaching consists of my comments on your essay (note the meaning of that noun--it means "attempt"). I took a grand total of one art class--intro to drawing. There again, we were taught things like composition and even the right way to hold a pencil, but in the end it was just me and an empty sheet of paper. I had to draw and the teacher had to give feedback.

My other comment is to be prepared for a perhaps unexpected consequence of learning nuts and also bolts. When you learn methodology, you no longer come to the art form with the same sensibilities. You are no longer an innocent reader. I once took a course on music production. The engineer right at the start said it: once you learn how music is produced, you will no longer hear it with the same ears. It didn't ruin music for me, not at all, but it did change how I hear both live and recorded music. The same will apply to other art forms.

In summary I'd say this: go with your gut. If a course--at a university, online, local library, under an oak tree--catches your interest, then go for it. It's an experience, so why avoid it? If it costs money, you'll have to decide whether you want to fork it out. We never really know if we like a car until after we've bought it, anyway.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

He did some work with 3 act as I recall. Everything he said was solid, no doubt about it. And I can see the pyramid of abstraction as being useful. I do get how having a different person tell you something can work wonders. I learned more algebra in one semester with an old nun in college as I did in two years of high school, LOL. Classes that make things click are worth the cash.

In general, for me personally, I've learned more about the fine details of writing from editors (personally and via books... see self-editing for fiction writers) and agents than from other writers... not including screenwriting. When writers instruct they tend to hit the big picture items and gloss over the fine details, this could in part be due to the "artist" inside who doesn't want to stomp on other people's words, or whatever.

Of course in my opinion, Sanderson's fine details are lacking while his big picture writing is fine, LOL.

A lot of the concepts I heard about and read about started to "click" when I heard it from him. I'm not sure why. But things like making strong prose and how to do it and how to conceptualize show v tel in particular (pyramid of abstraction). He also helped me realize the power of things like the three act structure and so forth. Although the the three act thing may have been from a guest lecturer.

 

[FifthView]

Neil Gaiman on writing comics (but I think it applies):

"You'll do best if you realize that there is a lot to know. Most bad comics are written by people who don't know that there is anything to learn... (Many of them were written by writers who are successful in other fields.) Having something to say is fairly essential, too. "

Yeah, I think this applies to many things. The people who don't realize there is a lot to know almost without exception produce really weak work. I can look back at my own earliest efforts and see the truth of it. (You know that stage where inspiration and excitement are so powerful you just know they'll carry you all the way!) For me, this is evident in my earliest poetry most strongly.

___

As far as Sanderson goes...I think he's a natural teacher, and I've found him to be extremely insightful. This impression is mostly from his podcasts but also a few YouTube videos I've watched. I think it helps that he teaches and writes, both. There are some writers who undoubtedly know a lot but are not in the habit of needing to regularly explain their writing and their reading, and they are not quite as clear and concise, structured, when giving their do's and don't's. Then again, perhaps it's just Sanderson's general persona, energy, excitement that help the most.

The one thing I find most annoying about him is minor, more like an automatic cringe I experience because I've noticed it now: It's his "Yep, yep" response to pretty much everything anyone else says during a conversation. On his podcasts he'll do this. "Yep, yep" and then sometimes a "but..." when he entirely contradicts or limits or modifies what someone has just said. Huh? Hah, I think it's a rhetorical device, something that actually eases conversation and makes him sound very supportive even when he's thinking, "Um, not so much" about whatever's said. It's a minor thing.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Yeah, I think this applies to many things. The people who don't realize there is a lot to know almost without exception produce really weak work. I can look back at my own earliest efforts and see the truth of it. (You know that stage where inspiration and excitement are so powerful you just know they'll carry you all the way!) For me, this is evident in my earliest poetry most strongly.

___

As far as Sanderson goes...I think he's a natural teacher, and I've found him to be extremely insightful. This impression is mostly from his podcasts but also a few YouTube videos I've watched. I think it helps that he teaches and writes, both. There are some writers who undoubtedly know a lot but are not in the habit of needing to regularly explain their writing and their reading, and they are not quite as clear and concise, structured, when giving their do's and don't's. Then again, perhaps it's just Sanderson's general persona, energy, excitement that help the most.

The one thing I find most annoying about him is minor, more like an automatic cringe I experience because I've noticed it now: It's his "Yep, yep" response to pretty much everything anyone else says during a conversation. On his podcasts he'll do this. "Yep, yep" and then sometimes a "but..." when he entirely contradicts or limits or modifies what someone has just said. Huh? Hah, I think it's a rhetorical device, something that actually eases conversation and makes him sound very supportive even when he's thinking, "Um, not so much" about whatever's said. It's a minor thing.

I find the yep yep thing to be more of a tic than anything else. I often find myself saying "Well..." whenever I disagree. I have been trying to cure myself of that particular tic. Although it has lead to some bluntness where I just say "No..." Maybe I oughtta start saying yep more often.

 

[FifthView]

I find the yep yep thing to be more of a tic than anything else. I often find myself saying "Well..." whenever I disagree. I have been trying to cure myself of that particular tic. Although it has lead to some bluntness where I just say "No..." Maybe I oughtta start saying yep more often.

Often enough, he does agree with whatever's being said. But sometimes not. It's "Yep, yep" to either, without distinction. I've wondered if the subconscious communication is more something like, "Yep, I'm hearing you..." or "Yep, I know what you are saying" than any sign of agreement.

 

[Chessie]

Sanderson's youtube classes helped me immensely when I realized that I wanted to write professionally someday. I'm grateful that the college allows him to upload those on the tube for folks that can't make it to his real class. The way he explains things really works for me and I found his breakdown of descriptive paragraphs super helpful.

He also writes good books.

Far as writing classes goes, I took a couple while in college. Truthfully? I think reading in your genre is really the best way to learn.

 

[Chessie]

It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.

My wife and I have both taken writing classes, both good and bad, and we both would tell you that good ones are worth their weight in gold for a number of reasons. Bad ones, not so much. Bear with me for a longer than average post while I try to talk about why the classes can be valuable, sometimes for obvious reasons, sometimes for not so obvious reasons.

First thing I would say to people before they take writing classes is that you need to know yourself as a learner and a writer first. Some people learn better from just reading books, some people do better when there is course, instructor, lectures and fellow students to interact with. If you are the type of person that learns well in a classroom environment with a structure curricula then a writing class or course may be very useful to you.

You also need to know yourself to know what level or type of course you need. My wife and I started taking some basic courses from a local company, and in due time, my wife went on to get her Masters in Genre Fiction, and I went on to teach at that program. You don't want to get into a course that is either too far ahead, or two far behind your level. I saw students in courses that were either not ready yet for that work, or were doing the work in their sleep because it was too easy. Unless you are chasing the credential taking a course that does not challenge you is just a waste of time.

You also have to know how serious you are about writing as a career. My wife has know for a long time she wants to make her living writing fiction, so investing the time and money to get her masters made sense. I have never had that same career focus on writing, so for me, 4-6 day courses or twice a week for eight weeks, or just a weekend seminar has worked out fine.

One of the non-obvious advantages of taking writing courses is the people that you meet and become friends with. I took two substantial writing courses with top notch spec pic authors and became friends with them, and have remained friends for many years. I had dinner with one of them a few weeks ago (I think I took the course maybe 15 years ago) and this chap generously spent a couple of hours giving us advice on marketing my wife's debut novel. My wife met her long time writing mentor while she was studying for her masters, and they remain in touch to this day, and will be getting together next week in NYC. Many of the people we both met through that masters program remain our livelong friends and they have spread out through the publishing industry and have become people we both trust and rely on for help in the writing/publishing field. The internet is a fine way to meet people, but meeting folks face to face in a course can build an even better bond.

To my mind, unless you have significant difficulty functioning socially, or you already have all the answers, if you can afford a good course and have some near you I would commend anyone to a good writing course. Your writing can take revolutionary steps forward when you hear ideas and learn concepts others are using to make their writing better. And this goes for very successful writers as well. You will see lots of NYT bestselling writers crammed in to hear Steve Berry talk about how to use "psychic distance" to make your books more powerful, or Donald Mass talk about the latest scientific research in what makes readers enjoy fiction at Thrillerfest for example.

Courses with good instructors are an effective way to learn no matter what field you are in. There is no reason to believe writing is any different. If you are serious about becoming a better writer you really should consider taking courses as one way of doing that.

+1 I love your post, Russ. Writing classes are valuable for those that do well in classroom settings. Having writing elements broken down for you really, truly helps. I'm that type of learner: academia gets through to me. I need it written on a gigantic chalkboard with examples and homework that drives the point home. But not everyone learns like this, just as you've mentioned, too.

One thing I wish had been included in the classes I took was reading in your genre. The professors always stressed the point of reading in general, which is good, but reading the types of books you want to write really do the trick. There are genre tropes, reader expectations that professors didn't stress back in the day. Don't know if they do now.

Also...your part in bold is going a bit too far. Like, who wants to make friends when you're a writer?

I would absolutely, without a doubt, pay for Sanderson's class. Getting feedback from him?! I would seriously go in my pants ya'll.

 

[Sheilawisz]

It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.

Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.

I have never taken Writing Courses and Workshops and all that, but I have seen my sister take them repeatedly over the years.

She has earned nothing but frustration, confusion and loads of lost money from them. After all, she came to the conclusion that it's better to follow your own creativity and heart just like I was telling her from the start, and she is capable of producing very good short stories and beautiful poems as a result.

I believe that a Writing Course or Workshop with much higher quality would be great, but only for people that feel and work that way with writing and storytelling. If it works for some people like you, great! However, for many others like me it's better to follow the natural methods because that's how we work, feel and live through the creative process.

I know we disagree a lot, but I did not come to this thread in order to start an argument. I decided to post here so Xyesenia (and other new writers with unknown potential that might be reading this) get to see both sides of the coin, not only the learning and theory side. Now it's up to Xyesenia to decide what to do in order to start his or her journey in what we do.

Xyesenia: If you decide that you want to try it my way, I'll tell you something else that I consider very important: The art of imagining and telling stories by means of writing is supposed to be enjoyable, not frustrating. It's something that develops beautifully into an incredible experience, and not something that you have to forcefully grind your way through.

Anyway, only you can decide which way is better for you.

 

[La Volpe]

I have never taken a fiction writing class. Well, I did a Bachelor's Degree in English Lit with creative writing, but it was correspondence, so it's not really the same thing.

So most everything I've learned was done so from videos of lectures, podcasts, books, and websites.

One of the non-obvious advantages of taking writing courses is the people that you meet and become friends with. I took two substantial writing courses with top notch spec pic authors and became friends with them, and have remained friends for many years. I had dinner with one of them a few weeks ago (I think I took the course maybe 15 years ago) and this chap generously spent a couple of hours giving us advice on marketing my wife's debut novel. My wife met her long time writing mentor while she was studying for her masters, and they remain in touch to this day, and will be getting together next week in NYC. Many of the people we both met through that masters program remain our livelong friends and they have spread out through the publishing industry and have become people we both trust and rely on for help in the writing/publishing field. The internet is a fine way to meet people, but meeting folks face to face in a course can build an even better bond.

This. It is incredibly frustrating for me that I'm unable to attend fiction (and specifically spec fiction) writing classes (due to them not existing anywhere near me). While I can get lecture type information and even feedback online, having writer friends is a serious privilege. They can not only read your work with an idea of who you are and what you're trying to say, but I'd think it's also a lot easier to critique when you can discuss this with someone verbally. The only people I can do that with are readers, not writers.

Moreover, having writer friends will do wonders for motivation, throughput, and mood when things go south. And competitive spirit is always a good thing.

 

[Chessie]

Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.

Aw, that's not fair. Everyone learns differently, and everyone's experiences are valid to their own processes. If someone is writing a book, they're using their creative side to do so. It doesn't matter how they get to the point of improvement. Experiencing a writing class is completely different than tuning into your creative side. In a classroom, you learn things through structure and examples. You then apply that to your writing process. But if you've never taken a class, then how would you know what that's like? What you can learn? I agree with Russ here. We ALL use our creative side to write a book, but not all of us have taken classes.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Sorry about that, Chessie.

I posted that comment because Russ said that it was amusing to see me talking about this stuff, and I did not like that. If somebody aims that kind of thing at me, I'll have to reply. I am just sharing my feelings and views on writing and narrating stories like everyone else, it's just that my views are very impopular around here.

Like I said before, I do not seek to start an argument. I just want Xyesenia and other new, aspiring authors to consider my natural ways just like they might consider the scientific path.

That's all =)

 

[FifthView]

I don't think enjoyment, intuitive creativity, and spirit are incompatible with learning and theory.

But I do think that learning and theory should be individual, personal pursuits even when pursued within a classroom or workshop environment.

In these considerations, I see an odd relation to Nietzsche. When trying to peg down his ideas about politics, I find that he negatively criticized pretty much every single political movement or theory he considered. At best, I've been able to label him a sort of radical libertarian: He believed that every single individual should set his own values, choose his own course, and overcome the tendency to let others decide these things for him. But here's the rub: Nietzsche was obsessed with delivering these ideas to others! Why? I mean: If he was so concerned about an individual choosing his own path, why/how could he so strenuously try to show other people a path and lead them down it?

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.

I have never taken Writing Courses and Workshops and all that, but I have seen my sister take them repeatedly over the years.

She has earned nothing but frustration, confusion and loads of lost money from them. After all, she came to the conclusion that it's better to follow your own creativity and heart just like I was telling her from the start, and she is capable of producing very good short stories and beautiful poems as a result.

I believe that a Writing Course or Workshop with much higher quality would be great, but only for people that feel and work that way with writing and storytelling. If it works for some people like you, great! However, for many others like me it's better to follow the natural methods because that's how we work, feel and live through the creative process.

I know we disagree a lot, but I did not come to this thread in order to start an argument. I decided to post here so Xyesenia (and other new writers with unknown potential that might be reading this) get to see both sides of the coin, not only the learning and theory side. Now it's up to Xyesenia to decide what to do in order to start his or her journey in what we do.

Xyesenia: If you decide that you want to try it my way, I'll tell you something else that I consider very important: The art of imagining and telling stories by means of writing is supposed to be enjoyable, not frustrating. It's something that develops beautifully into an incredible experience, and not something that you have to forcefully grind your way through.

Anyway, only you can decide which way is better for you.

I don't find writing classes and coming at it on your own as being two opposites. They are two sides of the same coin, really. The writing classes can be, and are, particularly helpful in diagnosing problems with a work you are producing. The creative side helps one to expand the scope of the story into something original. Both, I have found, are necessary to be good. The problem with writing classes is discerning which ones will work and which ones will not. Sandersons work particularly well for fantasy and sci-fi writers because that class is geared towards the genre. Whereas, other creative writing courses are more or less focused on "literary fiction" and that can be problematic for a genre writer, such as my self. The question isn't one of intrinsic utility of writing courses but of mindset. Writing courses give tools to write with. Creativity helps us to figure out how to use the tools in perhaps new and unexpected ways. The marriage of those two creates truly memorable works of fiction.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I agree with you, FifthView. It's true that both the learning and natural development aspects are different for every person, and should be very individual pursuits because we all are different individuals.

For me, enjoyment and intuitive creativity are indeed totally incompatible with learning and theory. However, that's just me. I am not strenuously trying to lead Xyesenia down my path, but I have the right to show it to him or her anyway and then it's his or her time to decide what to do in the journey.

Who knows, Xyesenia could be like me.

 

[ThinkerX]

Ok, semi-rural Alaska here.

Writing classes at the community college are of the technical variety. Had one of those most of thirty years ago.

There is a writers group or two in the area, but I have never attended it. Schedule stuff years ago, other things going on now - like actual writing. I have seen a few samples of their work.

Not a big one for 'how to write' books either. Bought maybe two or three of that sort total, and those are mostly thesaurus type books. (Side note - I do find it annoying just how limited alternate word selections are for some common objects - 'door,' for example.)

I have been writing on and off for better than thirty years, and still have a fair digital pile of my older material. When I look through that, and compare it with what is recommended in the various threads and articles that get linked to here, I note that apart from grammar issues (usually spelling, no spell check back then), and sometimes a slight tendency towards passive voice, I was pretty much in line with the recommendations even back in those days.

 

[Miskatonic]

With writing classes and books in general I see a lot of repeating of the same ideas that certainly have proven to work consistently over time, yet not anything that I would consider revolutionary tends to pop up. A lot of questions from new writers revolve around the notion of "How do I get people to like my story?". Given the different reader demographics, types of storytelling, and genres, it's really hard to give a solid answer to this question. The pitfall of studying too much and trying to absorb so many different points of view is that you can become almost paralyzed and have no idea how to actually sit down and get to writing. You start to want to nitpick every sentence that comes to mind before it's even written instead of just getting out that crude first draft.

When all is said and done you need to write so that you have material to analyze. You'll never know what you are doing right or doing wrong if you don't have examples for other people to look at. Actually committing yourself to putting words on paper is probably the biggest obstacle most potential writers face. There are just so many different ways to procrastinate that can be used as seemingly valid excuses because they are indeed going towards the story itself, but if the story is still in your head and not available for other people to read and critique, you haven't actually been doing what makes someone a writer. I am certainly guilty of this and it's a hard habit to break.

 

[skip.knox]

>you can become almost paralyzed
The key word here is "can". Doesn't mean you will. I spent five years in graduate school getting just about every word I wrote critiqued and held to a high standard. I never once felt bewildered or constrained. This was expository writing, not creative, but I did see some of my fellow students intimidated even to the point of quitting over things that I either shrugged off or actively welcomed. I think it's a difference in temperament. If, however, you are uncertain or seeking approval, then the pitfall Miskatonic describes is quite real.

 

[FifthView]

The pitfall of studying too much and trying to absorb so many different points of view is that you can become almost paralyzed and have no idea how to actually sit down and get to writing. You start to want to nitpick every sentence that comes to mind before it's even written instead of just getting out that crude first draft.

When all is said and done you need to write so that you have material to analyze. You'll never know what you are doing right or doing wrong if you don't have examples for other people to look at.

I was thinking about something like this yesterday. It's terribly easy, for me at least, to look at something that has been written, edited, and published and detect this or that strategy, the clever wordplay, and to form theories about it. But sitting down and staring at a blank screen is another story. Well, ideally it'll become another story. But when those first paragraphs can be written in 100,000 different ways, a moment of paralyzation can occur.

So the trick is to push something out onto paper and turn the latter into the former. I.e., turn the blank screen into something that can be analyzed. (By you, first, then maybe for others.)

I'm not sure that studying too much is the culprit, per se. If you have very limited options because you've not studied much, then you still have a blank screen vs all the books you've ever read. That can be a really frustrating, paralyzing thing: Seeing those first paragraphs coming out and they are nothing like all those great books.

 

[Russ]

Sorry about that, Chessie.

I posted that comment because Russ said that it was amusing to see me talking about this stuff, and I did not like that. If somebody aims that kind of thing at me, I'll have to reply. I am just sharing my feelings and views on writing and narrating stories like everyone else, it's just that my views are very impopular around here.

Like I said before, I do not seek to start an argument. I just want Xyesenia and other new, aspiring authors to consider my natural ways just like they might consider the scientific path.

That's all =)

You really seem a little overly sensitive about this stuff.

Anyways, what you are suggesting is a false dichotomy and misleads, either intentionally or unintentionally.

The topic the OP brought up was writing classes or courses. You seem to have jumped to the inaccurate conclusion that all classes take some of "scientific" approach, which is simply incorrect.

There are plenty of instructors who teach courses on meditation and writing, spirituality and writing, finding spiritual energy to write and even channelling to write. There are lots of people out there teaching courses or leading workshops on writing who espouse very similar approaches to the ones you do.

t's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.

But I am happy to stand by my comment that I find it amusing to see people commenting on courses or classes who have not taken them. It is about as amusing as suggesting that someone who advocates taking courses has not "experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling". You firstly seem to want to define and explain my experience and build a wall between learning a craft or understanding various academic aspects of storytelling and the spiritual enjoyment of it. The two (or three or more) are not mutually exclusive like you seem to want them to be.

What would be interesting though is if you could point out to me someplace where I suggested natural talent is irrelevant.