You know what's hard to write?

[Ireth]

A fight scene wherein five of the eight participants are invisible, that's what.

I have the following scenario: Vincent and Dom, two humans, are being accosted in Vincent's home by a group of Fae, on the charge of harboring Fae fugitives. (They're half-right -- there is one Fae fugitive in the house, but the Fae are looking for two.) Vincent and Dom guard the front door from inside, armed with iron frying pans; they do not know how many Fae are outside the house (twelve in all). The fugitive, Loegaire, escapes the house, but is caught by the Fae waiting for him outside. Six of their number, led by one named Éanna, sneak into the house to arrest Vincent, Dom, and Vincent's daughter Ariel; the other six guard Loegaire.

Ariel is currently locked in her upstairs bedroom room, surrounded by as much iron as she could find so the Fae can't get at her. Vincent hears the Fae sneaking into his house through an upstairs window in the room across from Ariel's, which was left open (by Loegaire, who jumped out of it to escape), and he and Dom run upstairs to protect Ariel if need be. The Fae are invisible under their Glamour illusions, but the great amount of iron nearby disrupts it to a degree, making the air shimmer.

Éanna, one of the six invisible Fae, becomes visible again and reveals that Loegaire has been caught; he tries to get Vincent to unlock Ariel's door so he can search for the other fugitive he believes to be hiding there. Vincent refuses, and orders him and his company to leave. Éanna orders the other five Fae to disarm him and Dom, and fighting ensues while the humans defend themselves.

My intention for the scene is to have Vincent and Dom hold their own against the Fae for a while, but ultimately be disarmed and arrested -- without anyone falling down the stairs and breaking their neck. Ariel will be left alone, as the Fae deem it too much of a hassle to try to get past that much iron in such a small space. Given that 5/6 of the Fae are invisible (unless they come into contact with the iron), and the scene is from Vincent's POV (he's not Fae-sighted, so the only way he can see through the Fae's Glamour is by the iron's disruption, or if they will it), this is proving to be a very tricky scene to write.

Any suggestions as to how I can keep this from being too confusing are welcome. ^^

 

[Shockley]

I'd say go for a summary - have him knocked out, or otherwise just speed the fight up. That we know something happened and its importance is the important aspect.

 

[The Writer's Realms]

Would it be possible to make the fae visible every time they believe they are dominant? For instance a fae topples one of our heroes and while they are prone, the fae reveals themselves to give orders of surrender. Then once our hero has the ability to see them, they attempt to strike in vain as the fae quickly go back to being invisible and dodge the oncoming blows with ease. Maybe?

 

[Ireth]

I'd say go for a summary - have him knocked out, or otherwise just speed the fight up. That we know something happened and its importance is the important aspect.

Speeding up the fight would work, I think, but I don't really want to squash it into just one sentence -- "It took only a few moments until Vincent and Dom were both disarmed and bound" really wouldn't do the scene justice. Knocking him out isn't really an option, since he has to be conscious to react to stuff that happens immediately after he's taken out of the house.

Would it be possible to make the fae visible every time they believe they are dominant? For instance a fae topples one of our heroes and while they are prone, the fae reveals themselves to give orders of surrender. Then once our hero has the ability to see them, they attempt to strike in vain as the fae quickly go back to being invisible and dodge the oncoming blows with ease. Maybe?

That could work, but I still need advice on how to describe stuff when they're not visible. Sight is a valuable sense to have in a battle, and it'll probably be what Vincent would instinctively try to use; hearing wouldn't be as much use, since any Fae's footsteps or movements would be muffled by the clashing of weapons -- about all he'd have to go on is voices, and those would be mingled and muddled too. Smell, taste and touch might be hard as well.

 

[ThinkerX]

Ok...

First - As I understand it, this tale is told through four (?) POV characters. How many POV's is this scene told from? Just Vincents? Vincents and Dom? If just one - and that is all it really should be, you describe the action until *that* character is knocked out, then *everybody* wakes up in the dungeon or whatever.

Second - How familiar are the fey with modern households? If they are not familiar, I can see the fey accidently doing all sorts of things which would betray their location - like mistaking the television or radio for a person and attacking it, accidently tripping light switches, starting at distant sirens (maybe wondering if they represent some distant monster), tripping over power cords, getting a whiff of bleach or something similiar, all sorts of stuff. Invisible does not equal knowledgeable or even stealthy.

 

[Shadow]

You could go with the old-fashioned route and have them become semi-visible through the means of smaller particles, so to speak.
Say Vincent gets some flour from the kitchen and throws it at where he presumes the fae to be; though they are invisible, the flour in the air would still be disrupted by their moving bodies and thus Vincent would be able to see them to an extent.
Naturally they still retain the advantage not being completely visible, but this would allow the two to be able to fend their foes off.

 

[Chilari]

If they can't see the fey, focus on that aspect. How would they try to fight something they can't see? They'd thrash around, try to move unpredictably, quickly, and keep their iron frying pans or other weapons between themselves and the threat - so backing against a wall or even into a corner, or fighting back to back with one another, would give them the best chance of not being sneaked up on. But then what problems is fighting like that going to cause? If they're moving quickly and unpredictably, they might end up hitting one another by accident, or getting in one another's way. And if the fey are quicker, they might be having some fun teasing and playing with Vincent and Dom, so they might hear giggling and feel taps to their shoulders, their legs, any part of them that is undefended at that point in time, before finally being overcome.

Don't focus on it being a fight, though. By which I mean, don't use the blow by blow technique. You have in such situations people attacking, feinting, dodging, raising weapons in defence, deflecting, countering and so on. You can't have that with invisible adversaries, because Vincent and Dom can't see what the fey are doing and they won't as a result be fighting like fencers, they won't be trying to be elegant or have proper form, they just want iron to connect with fey. It's more like someone who doesn't know how to swim trying to keep above the water when their boat sinks than it is like a fight: thrashing, frantic, panicked, inelegant and ultimately futile.

 

[wordwalker]

Chilari nailed it. Against an invisible foe you're mostly limited to guessing where they might be --though thrown objects or flour might help, or if things got quiet enough for footsteps-- and swinging wildly toward them. Especially if your weapon is also the thing that can disrupt their invisibility and give you a chance to follow up.

(On the other hand, can the invisible fey see each other? Normally I'd say friendly fire would be a huge problem for invisible troops, but I expect fey can see through each other's glamour.)

Three big questions, and one key point:

• How fast are Vincent and Dom able to get their backs to a wall, or a corner? That's their first worry, to not have to make those Wild Swings against all angles.

• How much shimmering do the fey do? Is it the faintest glimpse that the humans miss if they're at all distracted, or a general sense that "a fey might be somewhere a few steps ahead," or almost a cloud of shimmering that tells the humans where a target is but not what he's doing? Does this change in the places that have more iron around, such as Vincent considering dashing from one sheltered spot over to another that might be able to make his enemies clearer, or grab an armful of pots to toss around the room? How vulnerable the glamour is to this sounds like the biggest factor in whether the humans have any chance at all.

(Well, that and how big an advantage iron gives two humans against five anything...)

• How much iron do they have, besides the frying pans? If they had enough to throw pieces at shimmerings (or at the commander back there) they have a lot more options, including just trying to spread more iron around the room.

• And, what people don't often consider: the biggest problem with an invisible foe in a straight fight is their attack, not their improved defenses: your wild blows still have a chance, but you can't anticipate and block their swings at all, and can only hope to hit them first. Even if the spell's thinned out to "shimmering cloud", you might make out where he was but not when his arms are about to strike.

I'd say most of what your description is working with is what shimmering the fey give off, unless one of them makes a careless footstep (and that assumes the captain isn't standing back yelling to drown that out) or dodges back into something they knock over or such. Vincent and Dom would try to get to cover and/or iron-heavy spots, and rush at shimmers that were getting too close, or even try a wild run across the room hoping to nail someone before they could duck. Their main advantage seems to be that the iron really hurts the fey if they can just hit them, and if one foe drops they could follow up on him and really scare the others. The worst of it might be if one enemy got close enough to shimmer, but when the human rushed at him he found there were three others standing that concealing two steps further away from the iron.

(And now, I was about to go write a simple scene about a suicidal hostage, two kidnappers out to kill each other, and the hero trying to figure them out while the wizard watches it all...)

 

[Ireth]

Ok...

First - As I understand it, this tale is told through four (?) POV characters. How many POV's is this scene told from? Just Vincents? Vincents and Dom? If just one - and that is all it really should be, you describe the action until *that* character is knocked out, then *everybody* wakes up in the dungeon or whatever.

Second - How familiar are the fey with modern households? If they are not familiar, I can see the fey accidently doing all sorts of things which would betray their location - like mistaking the television or radio for a person and attacking it, accidently tripping light switches, starting at distant sirens (maybe wondering if they represent some distant monster), tripping over power cords, getting a whiff of bleach or something similiar, all sorts of stuff. Invisible does not equal knowledgeable or even stealthy.

1) I'm still trying to decide whose POV this scene should be from -- I have two versions in progress, one from Vincent's POV and one from Loegaire's. The fighting all takes place in Vincent's POV, but Loegaire's has advantages of its own. I think I'll post them both up here to let people help me decide which one works better.

2) Probably not very, but how much they manage to do by accident depends on how many things they encounter. Since they're upstairs, they've only really seen one room and a hallway, and an almost empty room at that. Just a bed, night-table and lamp, with possibly a book or two. Oh, and dirty dishes Loegaire left behind after supper. The television is downstairs, and was probably turned off before the Fae got into the house; same with the kitchen and the cupboards that would hold bleach and the like.

You could go with the old-fashioned route and have them become semi-visible through the means of smaller particles, so to speak.
Say Vincent gets some flour from the kitchen and throws it at where he presumes the fae to be; though they are invisible, the flour in the air would still be disrupted by their moving bodies and thus Vincent would be able to see them to an extent.
Naturally they still retain the advantage not being completely visible, but this would allow the two to be able to fend their foes off.

That, I think, would be more trouble than it's worth. Vincent and/or Dom would have to go all the way downstairs and across the house to the kitchen to get flour if they wanted to use it as you suggest, and that would leave the other brother alone against six armed and dangerous Fae -- not really a good idea.

If they can't see the fey, focus on that aspect. How would they try to fight something they can't see? They'd thrash around, try to move unpredictably, quickly, and keep their iron frying pans or other weapons between themselves and the threat - so backing against a wall or even into a corner, or fighting back to back with one another, would give them the best chance of not being sneaked up on. But then what problems is fighting like that going to cause? If they're moving quickly and unpredictably, they might end up hitting one another by accident, or getting in one another's way. And if the fey are quicker, they might be having some fun teasing and playing with Vincent and Dom, so they might hear giggling and feel taps to their shoulders, their legs, any part of them that is undefended at that point in time, before finally being overcome.

Don't focus on it being a fight, though. By which I mean, don't use the blow by blow technique. You have in such situations people attacking, feinting, dodging, raising weapons in defence, deflecting, countering and so on. You can't have that with invisible adversaries, because Vincent and Dom can't see what the fey are doing and they won't as a result be fighting like fencers, they won't be trying to be elegant or have proper form, they just want iron to connect with fey. It's more like someone who doesn't know how to swim trying to keep above the water when their boat sinks than it is like a fight: thrashing, frantic, panicked, inelegant and ultimately futile.

*nodnod* That's very helpful. ^^ The Fae are definitely the trickster type, they'd play with their victims before defeating them.

Chilari nailed it. Against an invisible foe you're mostly limited to guessing where they might be --though thrown objects or flour might help, or if things got quiet enough for footsteps-- and swinging wildly toward them. Especially if your weapon is also the thing that can disrupt their invisibility and give you a chance to follow up.

(On the other hand, can the invisible fey see each other? Normally I'd say friendly fire would be a huge problem for invisible troops, but I expect fey can see through each other's glamour.)

They can as long as they adapt their Glamour the right way. Loegaire, for instance, wanted to stay invisible to his own kind as he escaped, so his Glamour made that happen. Unfortunately for him, they still caught him anyway by watching where objects around him moved -- the window he opened to jump out, the indents in the ground when he landed, etc.

Three big questions, and one key point:

• How fast are Vincent and Dom able to get their backs to a wall, or a corner? That's their first worry, to not have to make those Wild Swings against all angles.

• How much shimmering do the fey do? Is it the faintest glimpse that the humans miss if they're at all distracted, or a general sense that "a fey might be somewhere a few steps ahead," or almost a cloud of shimmering that tells the humans where a target is but not what he's doing? Does this change in the places that have more iron around, such as Vincent considering dashing from one sheltered spot over to another that might be able to make his enemies clearer, or grab an armful of pots to toss around the room? How vulnerable the glamour is to this sounds like the biggest factor in whether the humans have any chance at all.

(Well, that and how big an advantage iron gives two humans against five anything...)

• How much iron do they have, besides the frying pans? If they had enough to throw pieces at shimmerings (or at the commander back there) they have a lot more options, including just trying to spread more iron around the room.

• And, what people don't often consider: the biggest problem with an invisible foe in a straight fight is their attack, not their improved defenses: your wild blows still have a chance, but you can't anticipate and block their swings at all, and can only hope to hit them first. Even if the spell's thinned out to "shimmering cloud", you might make out where he was but not when his arms are about to strike.

1) Not very, unless they can push past the Fae quickly enough. Vincent's at the top of the stairwell, and at this point Dom is on the stairs behind him. The Fae are all crowded around their leader, blocking the humans' way into the hall. That's why I mentioned the strong possibility of people falling and breaking necks if they aren't careful.

2) Given the amount of iron around, I'd say it's more like a cloud, which dissipates and makes the Fae more visible the closer they get to anything iron, and fades completely on contact with iron (but at that point, faded Glamour is the least of the Fae's worries). The Fae are avoiding Ariel's bedroom door as much as possible, since that's the largest amount of iron in the area.

That just gave me an idea... the Fae could use the room they entered through as an advantage. Lure the humans into it and away from Ariel, toward the still-open window. Then grab the humans and manhandle them out the window and down to the Fae waiting below with Loegaire.

3) All they've got is the pans, unfortunately. The only other iron in easy reach is some wall-hangings they could potentially (try to) shove the Fae into to hurt them. If they can get to it, though, there's a knife and fork in Loegaire's room from the supper he just ate -- he used gloves when handling the cutlery so it wouldn't hurt so much. Vincent offered to let him use silver instead, but being the nice guy he is, Loegaire made it easier on his host to just give him steel rather than hunt around for the special silver.

That would certainly give them an advantage -- being cut or stabbed by iron or steel spells a painful death by iron poisoning for any full-blooded Fae, unless they can be treated immediately. Fae with human ancestry are immune to the poisoning, since they themselves have iron in their blood and bodies, though it still hurts to touch purer iron or steel with their skin.

I'd say most of what your description is working with is what shimmering the fey give off, unless one of them makes a careless footstep (and that assumes the captain isn't standing back yelling to drown that out) or dodges back into something they knock over or such. Vincent and Dom would try to get to cover and/or iron-heavy spots, and rush at shimmers that were getting too close, or even try a wild run across the room hoping to nail someone before they could duck. Their main advantage seems to be that the iron really hurts the fey if they can just hit them, and if one foe drops they could follow up on him and really scare the others. The worst of it might be if one enemy got close enough to shimmer, but when the human rushed at him he found there were three others standing that concealing two steps further away from the iron.

Oh, indeed. Sadly I can't let it be too much of an advantage for the humans -- there's still the fact that they're outnumbered three to one, facing enemies with up to thousands of years of fighting experience. They're obligated by the plot to be pretty much screwed in the end. XD

 

[wordwalker]

Vincent's at the top of the stairwell, and at this point Dom is on the stairs behind him. The Fae are all crowded around their leader, blocking the humans' way into the hall. That's why I mentioned the strong possibility of people falling and breaking necks if they aren't careful.

That's an actual "choke point," even better than putting their backs to a wall. Except that the humans do have to watch their step as they dodge backward, though the fey might be a lot more desperate in their dodging and fall back on their backs on the stairs.

But unless the humans slip, in a position like that the fae sound practically powerless-- until they lure the humans away or sneak around behind them. Of course an ageless trickster would do that, and Vincent probably knows they would.

(One last thing: if the fae take enough losses, would they change their minds about taking prisoners and get out the bows?)

 

[Xaysai]

You guys are all so much better at this than I am.

I read this:

A fight scene wherein five of the eight participants are invisible, that's what.

And my head exploded.

It looks like you have some great suggestions, good luck, Ireth.

 

[Butterfly]

That, I think, would be more trouble than it's worth. Vincent and/or Dom would have to go all the way downstairs and across the house to the kitchen to get flour if they wanted to use it as you suggest, and that would leave the other brother alone against six armed and dangerous Fae -- not really a good idea.

Alternatively - talcum powder blown from the palm lingers in the air for a while and covers absolutely everything - source -upstairs bathroom? Ariel's dressing table? (Discovered this at about 8yrs old and got told off for it).

If your characters are dealing with the fae on a regular basis, know their weakness, they would be prepared. perhaps it would be prudent to invest in a few pots of iron filings to keep in pockets for such an encounter. Can be thrown at them randomly disperse out, ends up getting stuck in hair and clothing etc.

 

[Ankari]

My intention for the scene is to have Vincent and Dom hold their own against the Fae for a while, but ultimately be disarmed and arrested -- without anyone falling down the stairs and breaking their neck. Ariel will be left alone, as the Fae deem it too much of a hassle to try to get past that much iron in such a small space. Given that 5/6 of the Fae are invisible (unless they come into contact with the iron), and the scene is from Vincent's POV (he's not Fae-sighted, so the only way he can see through the Fae's Glamour is by the iron's disruption, or if they will it), this is proving to be a very tricky scene to write.

If the two had enough time to place all this iron stuff around the house, they must be familiar with the fae people weakness to iron. Why wouldn't they have a sack full of iron powder they throw in the air. While the iron is in the air, the fae are visible. This gives your characters that initial ability to fend off the fae. When the powder runs out, they are unable to see and therefore are overtaken.

 

[Ireth]

That's an actual "choke point," even better than putting their backs to a wall. Except that the humans do have to watch their step as they dodge backward, though the fey might be a lot more desperate in their dodging and fall back on their backs on the stairs.

But unless the humans slip, in a position like that the fae sound practically powerless-- until they lure the humans away or sneak around behind them. Of course an ageless trickster would do that, and Vincent probably knows they would.

(One last thing: if the fae take enough losses, would they change their minds about taking prisoners and get out the bows?)

*nod* That's what makes the scene so danged hard to envision so I can write it. Luring the humans away from the stairs and out the window is seeming more and more like the best option.

As for losses, I don't intend for the humans to actually kill any of the Fae, since having the Fae get fed up and just shoot them would counteract the plot. Killing off two of my heroes in chapter four is not what I had in mind. Besides, in such close quarters it would be easy for arrows to deflect off of walls and such, and harm or kill their own men (or women).

You guys are all so much better at this than I am.

I read this:



And my head exploded.

It looks like you have some great suggestions, good luck, Ireth.

*grabs a jello mould and duct tape, scoops up Xaysai's 'sploded brain in the mould and tips it back into his skull, then patches him up with the tape* There ya go. ^^ And thanks for the luck!

 

[Ireth]

Alternatively - talcum powder blown from the palm lingers in the air for a while and covers absolutely everything - source -upstairs bathroom? Ariel's dressing table? (Discovered this at about 8yrs old and got told off for it).

If your characters are dealing with the fae on a regular basis, know their weakness, they would be prepared. perhaps it would be prudent to invest in a few pots of iron filings to keep in pockets for such an encounter. Can be thrown at them randomly disperse out, ends up getting stuck in hair and clothing etc.

If the two had enough time to place all this iron stuff around the house, they must be familiar with the fae people weakness to iron. Why wouldn't they have a sack full of iron powder they throw in the air. While the iron is in the air, the fae are visible. This gives your characters that initial ability to fend off the fae. When the powder runs out, they are unable to see and therefore are overtaken.

Oooh, good ideas!

Talcum powder: Could very well work if they could reach it. Ariel's bedroom is locked from inside, so that's out (unless she can slide some powder under the door somehow). I haven't mentioned an upstairs bathroom, but it could easily be added in without disrupting continuity (and would probably make other things much easier as well).

Iron filings: I dunno if they'd think of that, since just carrying an iron object (even something as small as a nail) on one's person is supposed to be enough to keep the Fae away, unless they're angry or stubborn enough to ignore the discomfort it would cause in the hopes of harming said human. That said, these Fae ARE angry and stubborn -- they've got a job to do, and no qualms about hurting their opponents, as long as they're alive when captured. I'm also not sure where they'd keep iron filings so they'd be in easy reach (aside from pockets, of course, but you can't expect people to think of every little thing in a crisis).

 

[Addison]

.....I just had a flash of the bat scene from "Great Outdoors."
What type of weapons are the fey using? Little blades? Magic spells? Potions? What?
If you have never seen "Great Outdoors" it's an awesome movie and I'll give you the cliff notes about the bat scene. The family are woken in the middle of the night by the sister waking up screaming bloody murder become a bat grazed her apparently. They all run outside as the bat flies around the house. The two oldest take it upon themselves to rid them of the bat. They gear up, one walks in wearing a waste-basket as a helmet and bearing a lacrosse stick, the other in a ski mask, shades and bearing two tennis rackets. They turn off the lights to attract the bat and it comes shooting out. They try to swat it out of the air and do more damage to each other and the house until one of them finally nails the bat, which had landed on the other one's face.

How intense is this scene? If the fey are invisible then Dom and Vincent can be spinning around following their ears. There are such things as tense scenes speckled with humor. Maybe the fey, seeing that Dom and Vincent are at a disadvantage, use their swift flight and everything to make them jumpy and accidentally take each other out.

I'd also suggest reviewing the Peter Pan movies. Tinker Bell can hold her own in a fight thanks to her size.

 

[Ireth]

What type of weapons are the fey using? Little blades? Magic spells? Potions? What?

How intense is this scene? If the fey are invisible then Dom and Vincent can be spinning around following their ears. There are such things as tense scenes speckled with humor. Maybe the fey, seeing that Dom and Vincent are at a disadvantage, use their swift flight and everything to make them jumpy and accidentally take each other out.

I'd also suggest reviewing the Peter Pan movies. Tinker Bell can hold her own in a fight thanks to her size.

1) I see them with bronze swords -- they'd have better reach than daggers would, and arrows, as I said, are impractical in this situation. Then again, *stabbing* the humans with arrows rather than shooting might work... and elfshot would be particularly nasty to be hit with. That would turn the tables in the Fae's favor very quickly.

2) I intend for the scene to be intense rather than humorous (though whether I can pull it off is another matter!). And from what others have said, the Fae are at a disadvantage of their own as well, given their positioning in relation to the humans. That may change as people move around, though -- and it's still a chore to write. :/

Yay, Peter Pan! I haven't seen those in ages. If I can find them, and the time to watch them, I'll definitely do that.