Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

Alexandra Daddario should be Wonder Woman.

You're joking, of course.

 

[glutton]

You're joking, of course.

She looked good for it in Percy Jackson 1, might have slimmed down a bit too much since then though.

 

[Mindfire]

She looked good for it in Percy Jackson 1, might have slimmed down a bit too much since then though.

Looking right isn't enough. It has to be someone with proven acting ability. And I was no impressed with her performace as Annabeth. But then again, I wasn't impressed with Percy Jackson as a whole. It's up there with The Last Airbender in terms of bad adaptations.

 

[glutton]

It has to be someone with proven acting ability.

She was in Texas Chainsaw! *shuts up*

 

[Zero Angel]

I don't know. Avengers was full of A-list heroes, and both Wasp and Miss Marvel are B-listers. That's kind of a legacy issue. Wasp would've been especially tough because she's so tied into Ant Man. And Miss Marvel's movie rights only just came back into Marvel's possession - they've been buying them back because of how well the movie did.

But of the Marvel B-listers, I think Miss Marvel is the closest to moving up, in part because of Whedon's introduction of the SWORD space station and the way her character was featured in the Disney Avengers TV show. I honestly think a good movie could fix up her story enough to push her up - and since she's tied so heavily into space and aliens, it's almost like there's a rogues gallery waiting for a hero. Well, maybe.

They're doing an ant-man movie though, aren't they? Does anyone like him? In the Ultimates, he ended up abusing the Wasp into the arms of Captain America. I didn't like anything about any of that storyline.

 

[Ophiucha]

People actually saw Texas Chainsaw?

@Mindfire, the problem is less within the text (erm, film) and more how it is presented. Wonder Woman is the definition of a strawman feminist, and when the dialogue pretty much outright states that they are opening the world of the Amazons so that they can meet men and date and live more full lives, it just has the strange mixed message that women need men to live full lives. Indeed, I seem to recall them saying that this change would let them "live their lives as women". The problems with their man-hating attitude are valid, yes, but they are created purposely to justify the ending where they decide that women just need a good man to live a full life. And Wonder Woman's reaction to her love interest's actions until he admits that he ~loves her~ is just so... poorly constructed. Rather than explore the legitimate sexism she experiences while living as Diana, they focus on her overreacting to him asking her out instead.

The film definitely also explores feminist ideas, as Wonder Woman comics/films often do, but it just keeps falling short over and over again. I wanted to like it, but the emphasis on how the women on their island wanted families and (implicitly) husbands, how Diana 'lightened up' after she found one nice guy despite numerous experiences with sexism on Earth. I feel like the writers - or the execs, perhaps - just sort of... purposely constructed a situation in which Diana and Hippolyta and everyone else would have to be proven wrong, as opposed to giving them more equal standing to present their viewpoints. Perhaps it was trying to strike a balance between pro- and anti-feminist arguments, but the poor characterization of Diana made it lean more towards anti-? Perhaps it was the cringe-worthy dying words of Persephone, "the Amazons are warriors, but we are women too!", which again emphasizes the idea that they all must want a family/husband. Perhaps it just needs a sequel that focuses on a strawman chauvinist villain to give the pro-feminist arguments a little more time to shine. But it fell very short of the line for me.

Plus, I don't like the woman who voiced Wonder Woman. The rest of the cast was fantastic, but she was... eh.

 

[Mindfire]

People actually saw Texas Chainsaw?

@Mindfire, the problem is less within the text (erm, film) and more how it is presented. Wonder Woman is the definition of a strawman feminist, and when the dialogue pretty much outright states that they are opening the world of the Amazons so that they can meet men and date and live more full lives, it just has the strange mixed message that women need men to live full lives. Indeed, I seem to recall them saying that this change would let them "live their lives as women". The problems with their man-hating attitude are valid, yes, but they are created purposely to justify the ending where they decide that women just need a good man to live a full life. And Wonder Woman's reaction to her love interest's actions until he admits that he ~loves her~ is just so... poorly constructed. Rather than explore the legitimate sexism she experiences while living as Diana, they focus on her overreacting to him asking her out instead.

The film definitely also explores feminist ideas, as Wonder Woman comics/films often do, but it just keeps falling short over and over again. I wanted to like it, but the emphasis on how the women on their island wanted families and (implicitly) husbands, how Diana 'lightened up' after she found one nice guy despite numerous experiences with sexism on Earth. I feel like the writers - or the execs, perhaps - just sort of... purposely constructed a situation in which Diana and Hippolyta and everyone else would have to be proven wrong, as opposed to giving them more equal standing to present their viewpoints. Perhaps it was trying to strike a balance between pro- and anti-feminist arguments, but the poor characterization of Diana made it lean more towards anti-? Perhaps it was the cringe-worthy dying words of Persephone, "the Amazons are warriors, but we are women too!", which again emphasizes the idea that they all must want a family/husband. Perhaps it just needs a sequel that focuses on a strawman chauvinist villain to give the pro-feminist arguments a little more time to shine. But it fell very short of the line for me.

Plus, I don't like the woman who voiced Wonder Woman. The rest of the cast was fantastic, but she was... eh.

Personally, I thought Persephone's dying words were very touching. Also, maybe you missed my post earlier, but the "writers" you're blaming? Gail Simone. And I kind of see your points, but if you're looking for a "strawman chauvinist", it doesn't get any straw-ier than those dudes who attacked Diana and Trevor in that alleyway.

 

[Ophiucha]

Gail Simone has spoken about how much power the execs have over her decisions before; I wouldn't be surprised if they were around for this film, keeping her from going too feminist. I think Persephone's words would have been better if they it were just "we're also human" instead of specifically women, given the themes of the film up to that point. More inclusionary, less uncomfortable. Also, three nameless dudes in an alley hardly count as villains.

Regarding the Marvel films, you definitely have history to contend with. These comics came out in the 60s, so obviously the most popular ones were the ones with male protagonists. Iron Man, Thor, The Hulk, Captain America - you have to have them. But I think we could have swapped out Hawkeye for Black Cat or Wasp or even... Elektra. (I mean, she did get her own film a few years back. Sorry for reminding everyone! But I seem to recall her being affiliated with S.H.I.E.L.D. in at least one comic, so hey, it could have worked.) Hawkeye, nobody needed him. And nobody wants or needs an Ant-Man film. Or a Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Heck, I've seen talks of Cable, Nighthawk, Iron Fist, and Vision. VISION. Y'all can toss us Wasp, at the very least.

I also agree with whoever suggested The Runaways. That's, like, my favourite comic book series. Ideally make it before Mae Whitman is way too old to play Gertie Yorkes.

 

[Mindfire]

Wasp will probably appear in Ant-Man, seeing as (IIRC) her origin is closely tied to his.

 

[Ophiucha]

Yeah, the Wasp is his girlfriend/crime-fighting partner, though she might not come in until the second film (if they actually decide to bless the world with two Ant-Man films). Depends on which universe/timeline they decide to follow. Hopefully they add her into the first one, not just for the sake of an extra female hero, but also because Ant-Man is really boring and at least a bit of a romantic buddy cop angle would spice it up a bit.

 

[saellys]

Hawkeye, nobody needed him.

Hawkeye was literally a plot point. The only remotely interesting thing about his role in Avengers was that it reversed a trope: his capture/imminent danger was used to get an emotional response from Black Widow, and not the other way around. Still, that was Exhibit A that Marvel wanted too much from Joss. I can just picture that meeting. "Uh, Hawkeye too?" "YES."

I also agree with whoever suggested The Runaways. That's, like, my favourite comic book series. Ideally make it before Mae Whitman is way too old to play Gertie Yorkes.

OMG she's perfect!

 

[Feo Takahari]

I've been doing some research on Wonder Woman's background, and I think maybe the problem with using her to comment on sexism is that she's been somewhat divorced from the level of sexism that, in-universe, shaped her earliest incarnation. In recent works, the Amazons hate men because, I dunno, men are icky or something. In the earliest comics, they're reacting to a history of enslavement. (That's where those manacle-like bracelets come from--they're a reminder that the Amazons were once chained, and a vow that they'll never be chained again.) If we as readers and viewers get a better idea of what Wonder Woman is reacting against, her reactions become more understandable and, contextually, potentially more sympathetic. (Not that she specifically needs to react against sexism, only that in what I've seen of her, she reacts against people underestimating her, without much mention of anyone trying to control her.)

 

[Mindfire]

I've been doing some research on Wonder Woman's background, and I think maybe the problem with using her to comment on sexism is that she's been somewhat divorced from the level of sexism that, in-universe, shaped her earliest incarnation. In recent works, the Amazons hate men because, I dunno, men are icky or something. In the earliest comics, they're reacting to a history of enslavement. (That's where those manacle-like bracelets come from--they're a reminder that the Amazons were once chained, and a vow that they'll never be chained again.) If we as readers and viewers get a better idea of what Wonder Woman is reacting against, her reactions become more understandable and, contextually, potentially more sympathetic. (Not that she specifically needs to react against sexism, only that in what I've seen of her, she reacts against people underestimating her, without much mention of anyone trying to control her.)

That makes some sense, but I think even that interpretation is flawed. Honestly, I think the "men are despicable" take on Wonder Woman has to go, root and stem. It adds nothing to the character and it certainly isn't a helpful commentary on real-world gender issues. I mean, Wonder Woman does NOT talk like this:

To be fair, that's from a comic that's pretty universally reviled and managed to get just about ALL the characters wrong, not just Wonder Woman. But it makes the point. When Wonder Woman's anti-men thing is played up it makes the character more... mean-spirited in a way that I personally don't think she should be. A reasonable compromise might be having Hippolyta and the other Amazons hold this view while Wonder Woman takes a more moderate stance, seeing both the good and bad in mankind and wanting to help them improve.

 

[Ophiucha]

Ugh, Frank Miller is the worst.

Wonder Woman is just a wildly underdeveloped character compared to most of the others in the DC line-up, and what few traits she tends to get over and over again were not established by the best writers. Her feminism quickly became 'strawman feminist' in the hands of the eighty dudes who wrote for her comics up until Gail Simone took over, and even though she did try to avoid it, the backstory with her living on Amazon island and Hippolyta's enforced isolation from men has sort of written the character into a corner. It's hard to take away her strawman traits because they've been woven into everything from her homeland to her outfit. And despite having an opportunity to change all of that with the New 52, they... honestly just made it a bit worse. A statement which applies to much of the New 52, to be fair.

I think a movie adaptation in the hands of some capable writers could establish a new 'canon' of Wonder Woman traits. The films are much more widely watched than the comics are read, and they almost invariably have an effect on the way the comics are written (primarily to market to all the people who liked the film). I think her being a feminist is necessary, but having it be her only really consistent trait, and one handled so poorly as it has been, has just been disastrous. Particularly since (a) most of her writers have no idea what modern feminism is even about, and (b) modern feminism does not a fun DC hero make. Unless they make her main villain 'Brush Tool Man', who with a wave of his wand gives women unrealistic expectations of beauty, there isn't necessarily a lot she could do to "fix sexism" that involves punching people in the face. A superheroine defined by her feminism might make for a good graphic novel over on Vertigo, but it doesn't really cut it for somebody on the same team as Batman.

And let's not get into their attempts to tackle non-Western feminism. Absolutely nobody at DC Comics or Hollywood is equipped to handle that, and every time they have tried has been cringe-worthy.

 

[Feo Takahari]

And let's not get into their attempts to tackle non-Western feminism. Absolutely nobody at DC Comics or Hollywood is equipped to handle that, and every time they have tried has been cringe-worthy.

I'm not entirely sure what the term "non-Western feminism" means in this context, but I'm kind of curious. Are you referring to characters like Dust, who have alternate perspectives on what constitutes female liberty? (I've heard about Dust secondhand, but I've never actually read any comic featuring her.)

 

[Ophiucha]

Dust is a pretty good character. Not from DC, but she's probably the most respectful depiction of a Muslim character in mainstream comics. Non-Western feminism, in my original context, could mean any issue that specifically deals with feminism outside of white America/Europe, which is generally where Wonder Woman sticks to. There have been a few instances where she travelled the world to deal with issues abroad, to mixed results. (I can't say I can recall an instance where she dealt with the intersection of racism and sexism in America, though.) Usually, it just comes across as blandly oversimplified and a little white saviour-y, but in the hands of the wrong writer, I've seen a few vaguely racist stories that make these women seem like idiots.

These days it is usually the former (let's not look back more than a decade, though), but particularly with Islam - where it is still somewhat acceptable in the mainstream to call the entire religion 'sexist' - they sometimes tread on a thin line. And DC just isn't very good at handling social issues. Not that Marvel is significantly better overall, but they've been much better about evolving their characters past the racist/sexist/homophobic origins they once had and giving the characters over to writers better equipped to handle those evolutions. It's left many of their characters without as strong an identity as they once had, but Marvel was never as iconic as DC. The Hulk, Spider-Man - those two most people know pretty well, though I think Spider-Man's the only one on Superman and Batman levels of notoriety. But even Iron Man and Captain America were relatively unknown until they launched the MCU. Wolverine is iconic almost entirely because of Hugh Jackman to 90% of the people who know the character. Whereas even Wonder Woman is still an icon despite having no major film and her last noteworthy TV show being in the mid-70s.

All of which I think is worth noting when discussing how each publisher handles it's characters. Marvel has a lot less to lose by making radical changes to their characters, and the X-Men (which is where Dust is) is basically a free-for-all of characters that best fit the author's whims and they can just add more and more every year. DC is much more bound to their characters' stories, despite their claim to change things with the reboot, and they don't have any mix-and-match series of the same acclaim and flexibility as X-Men (who, incidentally, recently got an all-female line up).

 

[Mindfire]

I think Ophiucha has a point about establishing a new Wonder Woman canon. It might be a good idea to salvage the few best things about the character, junk the rest, and start over from scratch. Thinks I think ought to be kept:
-Amazon princess
-Themyscira
-Her few noteworthy villains: Cheetah, Circe, Ares, and Hades, though they may need to be retooled slightly.
-The motif of her costume and it's most iconic components, like the magic rope, tiara, and vanguards (they're not bracelets and I defy any who say otherwise).

And that's about it. Starting with these base elements, where do you go from here? To start with, I think Diana needs a clearer origin story and a better relationship with her villains. Batman and Superman's best villains are the ones that are their ideological opposites or who are dark mirrors of themselves. Batman is a champion of order and justice, while the Joker believes not only that life is intrinsically random, meaningless, and unjust, but that this is funny. Superman believes that those who have power also have a responsibility to use it responsibly and to help others better themselves. He also believes in the goodness of humanity. His opposite, Lex Luthor, is a refutation of that ideal, an man with immense power and resources who uses them to further his own selfish ends and knows how to play the system and escape punishment. Wonder Woman doesn't really seem to have a villain who is her ideological opposite. How about this: instead of making Wonder Woman a strawman feminist, why not make her archenemy the strawman feminist? The Justice League series did this in one episode with a villain named Aresia, and it turned out pretty well. Conversely, you could make one of her chief villains a strawman chauvinist. I think Circe and Ares are best suited to these roles, respectively.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I thought with the reboot they gave her these really neat black pants. What the heck happened to those?

 

[Mindfire]

I thought with the reboot they gave her these really neat black pants. What the heck happened to those?

Got rid of them because they were too different from her iconic look or something. I don't like any version of her New 52 costume honestly. The color scheme is wrong. Now THIS is what Wonder Woman should look like:

Aside from a few nitpicks that costume is perfect, and it looks like something that would fit in the universe established by Man of Steel.

 

[saellys]

^