Chemical weapons in Fantasy worlds

[Sheilawisz]

Hey Amanita =) You are right, recipes for simple chemical reactions are widely available and they are not going to look for them in a Fantasy forum, but anyway we are supposed to be a family friendly site. I mentioned ingredients for the Levinstein process, but clearly I am not going to describe exactly how it's done!!

I read somewhere that the LC50 for Phosgene is around 500ppm/minute, while a similar concentration of Chlorine can be fatal in a few minutes and just twice of that causes lethal damage after a few breathes. My opinion is that Phosgene seems to be way more deadly than Chlorine because, like you said, it takes longer to cause effect and you can inhale a lot more of Phosgene without even realizing what is happening =(

Chlorine attacks so violently that people cough with very low concentrations and so they are warned, which is the reason why the White Star was created in the Great War: Phosgene was more lethal because the troops would inhale much more of it, but Chlorine helped to carry and spread the denser Phosgene... and so combined, these two Agents caused more than 80% of all fatal chemical casualties of the Great War.

I think that the Choking Agents are terrifying and underrated by the Military. The Nerve Agents are famous as some sort of super deadly weapon, but the fact that they are super toxic does not mean that they are that effective in a real attack: Even with VX (and contrary to movies like The Rock) it would take many tons of chemical to cause severe casualties even in a highly populated area, which is a fact that tranquilizes me a lot =P

After all, chemical weapons are really a psychological weapon (not a chemical nuke like some people imagine) and for that purpose, the Choking Agents are really more than efficient...

So, do you know the LC50 for Fluorine??

About the weaponization of Chlorine in a low-tech Fantasy world, it would not really be about releasing huge amounts of the Agent quickly: What they would need would be to produce little amounts and liquefy them (either by cold weather or by pressure) create a stockpile of liquid Chlorine and then take it to the battlefields...

What is it like when your magical characters use Chlorine??

 

[Amanita]

Sorry for taking so long to answer again, but I didn’t want to have this feel like a one on one-discussion. But never mind, I don’t think the rules in this forum forbid this and maybe it’s interesting for someone else as well.

A few LC-50 doses over one hour. (Safety data sheet)
Phosgen: 5 ppm
Nitrogen Dioxide: 115 ppm
Fluorine: 185 ppm
Chlorine: 293ppm

I’ve added nitrogen dioxide because it can easily be made from nitric acid, which was known to alchemists back in the 9th century. It might be a realistic option for pretechnological chemical warfare, even though I’m not sure how well it can be spread on a battle field. It could be created there directly though which would solve the problem of transporting the gas.
In a closed room or something similar it could definitely work. I could picture a scene of protagoniats entering an evil alchemist’s workroom full of brown fumes they can’t recognise. And disaster ensues…
The brown colour isn’t bad for psychological effects either.

Besides, it’s the only one of those poisonous gases I’ve actually had to deal with in real life so far and I keep being surprised by the low lethal dose. And unlike hydrochloric acid vapours which I had the „pleasure“ to inhale as well, it isn’t irritant and actually has a more pleasant smell than many other, less dangerous things in the lab.
Inhaling hydrochloric acid feels like a mixture of putting your head under water and a burning pain. Chlorine would be similar I assume, and facing this in a situation where you can’t close the fumehood and open the window would definitely have devastating psychological effects even if it doesn’t do severe physical harm.

Chilling things behind the link you’ve posted by the way. Especially the story about the young Canadian’s death.
Reading something like this, I feel guilty for putting it into my fictional world again, but the same would go for many other things that happen in many fantasy stories and can’t be left out completely most of the time, such as torture, other messy ways of dying and sexual violence.

What is it like when your magical characters use Chlorine??

Well, that depends. In case of my protagonist, it’s mostly protecting others. She’s suffering from her element’s reputation and from the fact, that all kinds of dubious people’d like to have her on their side.
The villainess mainly uses it against defenseless opponents she considers inferior for soem reason. She’s also able to make phosgene out of salt, air and anything containing carbon.
One of the protagonists teachers has used chlorine to fight the fanatical people whose country he wanted to help „free“ from their evil leader.
The citizens believed differently and were prepared to send everyone into the battle who could hold anything resembling a weapon. He actually intended to scare them away rather than kill too many oft hem and he’s also been rather desperate because they’ve been attacked by people they wouldn’t usually consider a thread by than.
Back home he had to face plenty of criticism, because there were quite a few women and children among the victims but his punishment wasn’t too severe.
There’s also been a past war where elemental powers and traditional chemical weapons were used in large quantitites. (My setting is not medieval.) I’m not sure if this will ever make it into an actual story however, because it’s extremely hard to define who the „good“ side is supposed to be.

 

[Devor]

First, like Graham and Gerald have said, poisonous smoke was the first "chemical weapon" used in warfare and it was usually created with sulfur (sulfur dioxide is quite poisonous) sometimes mixed with pitch and other things.

Would this be a good place to ask about sulfur dioxide and arsenic-based gases? Following this thread, it's become clear that those gases might fit into one of the settings I'm working on, and I don't know anything about them.

 

[ascanius]

I find this post annoys me. I've been getting no sleep for the past two weeks and frankly don't care who I piss off any more and decided I hate classes! sorry if I offend anyone. so First I'll clear up a few things.

Like Amanita mentioned, the colour of Chlorine and the fact that the soldiers could actually see the freaking green cloud drawing closer was a terrible psychological weapon, even later in the war when better gas masks could provide effective protection against Chlorine, Phosgene and the White Star.

The kinetic molecular theory stats that gas particles travel in a straight line until they collide with the walls of their container, or another particle. And unless the the volume is very small or the number of gases particles very small then this occurs without a net loss of kinetic energy PV=nRT. Where P=pressure, V=volume n=number of moles, R=0.08206 atm L/ mol K, and T= tem in Kelvins. This means that in a limitless volume the number of particles for any toxic gas is so small as to be negligible. Thus unless an enemy was in the immediate vicinity of such a gas little to no health risk is posed. Carbon Monoxide for instance, the symptoms and effects vanish once a patient is removed from the toxic source. so delivery by the wind would never work, the victim has to be very close to the source for any deadly effect to be had. As soon as they are gone and normal ventilation occurs then the effects, unless anaphylaxis is present, then casualties can be minimized.

Also, primitive batteries and copper wires would allow them to produce Chlorine from water and salt: If this was done in a very cold weather, they could liquefy the Chlorine and store it inside some form of glass or steel containers to be taken to war and delivered with the wind.

Not quite. all that would happen is the electrolysis of water producing H(sub 2) and O(sub 2), both are highly reactive, once the concentration of water was depleted then the Cl and Na ions would reassociate and form a salt again, unless some intermediary was included but that too would require the isolation of a reactive species to bind with the one of the two ions leaving the other precipitate an Na metal or molecular Cl.

Sheilawisz: Molecular fluorine is so dangerous that it is difficult to store and handle even industrially, it reacts rabidly with pretty much everything. As an aside, fluorine-containing minerals were used in ore processing in the 1500's if not earlier.

Fluorine containing minerals were used, not Flourine itself. Flourine is the most electonegative element known meaning it is very reactive, the only one with an electronegativity of 3. The problem is isolating Fluorine by itself.

Severin, I have always wondered why water is not explosive, why Chlorine and Sodium combine to create common salt, why the atmosphere cannot be ignited and many other curiosities, chemistry is strange and fun sometimes =)

First water can be explosive (well not actually water but what is added to water) depending on the addition of certain elements such as large quantities of Na(sodium) Second the high reduction potential of O(sub 2) means that it is highly reactive, O(sub 2) ion is actually a poison in the metabolic pathway of respiration in large concentrations. And high quantities react with the proteins and other vital compounds in cells, these are called free radicals. Second for salt to be reactive the to components Na and Cl would have to be separated requiring, if I remember correctly, about 5000 degrees Celsius to reach vaporization. A very High temperature to reach in a low tech setting. There are probably other ways to do this but I am too tired to look them up.

I think that the Choking Agents are terrifying and underrated by the Military. The Nerve Agents are famous as some sort of super deadly weapon, but the fact that they are super toxic does not mean that they are that effective in a real attack: Even with VX (and contrary to movies like The Rock) it would take many tons of chemical to cause severe casualties even in a highly populated area, which is a fact that tranquilizes me a lot =P

They are not underrated but simply banned by the Chemical Weapons Convention that officially took effect on April 29, 1997(Wiki) The problem with "chocking agents" is that they are upper respiratory irritants that cause an inflammation effect, my pathophysiology on this is a bit rusty so I may be wrong. However, Chocking is the blockage of the upper respiratory system every thing superior the larynx to the oral and nasal pharynx. An attack on the lower respiratory system is not the same as chocking, but things like COPD, pulmonary edema to name two. The coughing is a signal that the air has a toxin, all that is needed is fresh air, except, possibly for some toxic agents. The effects of Carbon Monoxide poisoning vanishes once the patient is removed from the toxic environment, the same is true for Chlorine gas, and many others due to the nature of ventilation and respiration in the body. The actual concentrations of O2 in the air are around 20% The quantity that is used for respiration, the exchange of O2 and CO2 is actually much lower that that percentage in the lungs. The atmosphere is composed mainly of Nitrogen and other molecules. If a gas is released then kinetics means it dilutes extremely rapidly in the air to harmless concentrations, unless in an enclosed space. So releasing unless the intended victims are very close to the source the concentration decreases VERY rapidly because gas particles travel at such high velocities.

Ummm.......VX is the most lethal chemical agent known to man. It is 100 time more lethal than sarin gas. A liter is more than enough to cause svere casualties especially in a densely populated area. About 4 square millimeters provide a lethal dose in solid state. or 0.00003mg/cu.m. (l) http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/dugway/low_lv_chem_fact.htm for sarin The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Nerve Agent: VX for VX
or MSDS: VX, Chemical Biological Radiological Nuclear - Nerve Agents These limits are extremely small amounts so it would not take many tons to cause sever casualties. So for once I think movies are actually correct in depiction of a toxic chemical. Oh and VX is an oily liquid that can stay active for protracted periods of time and is almost impossible to decontaminate against, or remove making it even more deadly. VX and other nerve agents have the reputation they do for a very good reason. Nerve agents are readily absorbed, through skin, or pulmonary pathways, meaning any contact without PPE(personal protective equipment) for the toxicity rating of the agent is toxic. All that needs to be done is dispersal above a population and the nerve agent will fall to the ground contaminating everything. If a person comes in contact with VX in a lethal dose then, unlike toxic gases, if they leave the area they will still die because it is in their system in sufficient quantities through absorption of the skin. Imagine arosoled VX falling from the sky in a city and you don't even know it. Then sudden onset of symptoms. The victims won't even be removed from the site until they have been decontaminated, we are talking massive triage here. And because such a small dose is needed any contact could mean death. Simply leaving the scene will do little, urgent medical attention is required. VX is classified as a weapon of mass destruction, it is a health level 4. For comparison the Ebola virus has a Biosaftey 4. Both of which are not things one wants risk any contact with.

 

[ascanius]

About the weaponization of Chlorine in a low-tech Fantasy world, it would not really be about releasing huge amounts of the Agent quickly: What they would need would be to produce little amounts and liquefy them (either by cold weather or by pressure) create a stockpile of liquid Chlorine and then take it to the battlefields...

Chlorine liquifies at -306 degrees Fahrenheit. The complexities of reaching that low of a temp in a low tech setting are extremely high. An understanding of kinetics, Free energy, entropy and other theories are needed before one can even reach those temps, much less accumulate enough Chlorine to make it worth while.

I’ve added nitrogen dioxide because it can easily be made from nitric acid, which was known to alchemists back in the 9th century. It might be a realistic option for pretechnological chemical warfare, even though I’m not sure how well it can be spread on a battle field. It could be created there directly though which would solve the problem of transporting the gas.

Nitrogen Dioxide is a byproduct of our modern day internal combustion engine. Also because it is acidic those exposed to it will have warning signs but the lethal dosage is very high meaning a large quantity is need for lethality. Also a sound understanding of chemistry is needed to isolate Nitrogen Dioxide from Nitric acid such as element reactivity and other things to isolate Nitrogen dioxide. In a closed room it's use as a poison is feasible but the delivery method is tricky. Isolating nitrate in sufficient quantities could prove troublesome without a firm understanding of modern chem.

The idea behind this thread really is to include chemical agents that would be used by people without Magic, and how plausible it could be for such elements and compounds to be discovered and weaponized in a Fantasy world =)

The problem I see with these sorts of chemical weapons is the level of technology required to actually achieve their syntheses. For all we know Nitroglycerine was discovered many years before our modern time, but due to it's lethality and technological requirements was never reported because it blew up the discoverer, which actually happened. Take greek fire, last I read no one knew how it was discovered. But what is surprising is what can be done with the right ingredients, Iodine tables dissolved and ammonium can produce a friction sensitive explosive. Or Therminte, the reduction of iron to Fe(III)O(sub 3) can melt through a 2 inch thick steel plate in a matter of minutes. DON'T TRY ANY OF THESE!!!! The wrong amounts of Ammonium can leave you a gooey red splatter on the wall, not to mention in a federal prison if you survive! I add this to stress the point that without an understanding of what is going on and how to manipulate the species in a reaction things can turn out very bad. also, Along with technologies such as electricity, which led to the discovery of protons, and electrons, atomic theory and so forth. A fundamental understanding of mathematics is also needed, Calc.
If magic is used then the same problems arise. The level of complexity required to write this sort of thing is great, and technological requirements need to be thought of or explained in such a way so as to seem possible. If you get bored some time check out what actually went into the history to make chemistry what it is today.
I think this idea can work, but I think either it needs to be simple, very basic chemistry, or very complex. I think the reason this hasn't been done before is due to the level of understanding needed to make it convincing. This is an idea I have toyed with but decided not to after trying to figure out plausible way to incorporate what I know of Chemistry and physics into a greko/roman setting. The problem I came up with was how to explain knowledge of subatomic particles, and knowledge of chemistry in the setting, but they still had to use flint and tinder to light a fire. Or rode around on horses, but never though of harnessing combustion. For me it is the same way J.K Rowling wrote the spell names and incantations, seeming to be Latin but simply used English words with a Latin sounding ending such as wingardium leviosa. The use of something to simply give it a unique twist, or play to a specific compassion I find as an annoyance that takes away from what I am reading. I will say this, I applaud anyone who tires, and say kudos to you for preserving where others have given up! GOOD LUCK.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello Devor =) Sulfur Dioxide is produced easily by simply burning Sulfur: It's quite poisonous and can be lethal, even though it's much less dangerous than Chlorine or Phosgene. Arsenic-based chemical weapons include Arsine and the Lewisite Agent (created during the Great War but never used in combat) however, if you mean arsenic-containing smoke I have little knowledge about it but I'll try to research a little for you =)

 

[Sheilawisz]

Amanita, thank you for the LC50 information about different chemicals and for telling me about Nitrogen Dioxide, I did not know about that particular compound and it sounds like it could be useful in a Fantasy story =)

Sorry about the chilling stories about the Chlorine attacks in the Spartacus link... it was awful, but it's part of real world history and if you have included such things in your Fantasy stories, it's alright: Fantasy is full of all sort of terrible and scary things already, like you said to me, so why not introducing dangerous chemicals in a story??

It's original!!

I'll send you messages to talk about your characters more deeply, it's very interesting =)

 

[Sheilawisz]

Ascanius: Chlorine released from cylinders and taken by the wind forming clouds was used effectively in the Great War: In April 22 1915, a giant Chlorine cloud created a 7 kilometers-wide gap in the Allied lines. This style of attacks stopped being effective because the gas masks were getting better, but still it was a formidable psychological weapon.

Electrolysis of water with salt is the industrial, large-scale method for Chlorine production in our world. It also releases Hydrogen and Sodium Hydroxide is created as a sub-product.

A scary fact: if you inhale enough Chlorine or Phosgene it doesn't matter if you are taken to safety away from the Agent. What happens basically is that your respiratory system is destroyed, and there is no way of treating this... Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen and other gases can suffocate people, but the true Choking Agents do much more than that: They burn and destroy their victims' respiratory systems and this is a terrible way to die =(

Chlorine can be easily liquefied at -34°C so if they have a cold weather in a Fantasy world (something like Siberia, with -40 outside of the Alchemy labs) producing liquid Chlorine is plausible indeed...

VX is only slightly more toxic than Cyclohexyl Sarin and Soman (anyway, the information available about the V series Nerve Agents is very limited) the fact that a few VX miligrams on the skin can kill a person does not mean that all of the VX inside of a weapon will reach every single person in the attacked region- an example from the real world:

In the Halabjah tragedy, the city was hit repeatedly for two days with Nerve Agent attacks combined with the Mustard Agent, and even though the fatalities were terrible, the vast majority of the city's inhabitants were capable of escaping and most of them survived. Also, in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980's Iraq used Nerve Agents extensively and still they were unable to get a real advantage or win the war just because of the Nerve Agent attacks.

Also, water with soap and bleach can protect human skin effectively against Nerve Agent absorption =)

By the way, the Novichok Agents are supposed to be way more toxic even than VX but nobody knows for sure =P Anyway, the Nerve Agents cannot exist in a low technology Fantasy world, so we should talk about Agents that are plausible for Alchemy or basic Chemistry in the worlds that many of us use in our stories.

 

[Steerpike]

If there is magic in the world, does the level of technology matter?

If you don't have the technology to liquefy chlorine, but you have magic that will bring about the right temperature, then the problem is solved.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Steerpike, indeed Magic would allow the existance of any Chemical Warfare Agent but then we would be talking about Mages. The idea of the thread is to discuss whether such substances could be produced and weaponized by common people in our worlds or not, because Magic would just make it too easy =)

My Mages have never used any chemical weapon, but if they wanted a purple, persistent gas with a violets smell that acts like Phosgene and causes hallucinations like LSD at the same time, they would make it: Whether such a substance is chemically possible or not, they would not care, it would appear just like that!!

 

[BeigePalladin]

Because that's going back to magic, and in most worlds magic is much rarer than peasents. This thread was about the non-mages and what they could do in regards to chemical weapons and the technology needed to produce them so it dosen't seem to out of place (as well as inspiring people on what is out there). Sure, magic could be used to help produce it, but then not every world has abundant (or any) magic and to be fair, when you discover how to make something - that you'd need for most magic to work - you'd have almost the same technology needed to make it yourself

you could do everything and anything with magic, but then you don't have a story. you have a collection of events and a mary sue in the middle of it all. And as Sceilawiz says, if a mage wants to do something, why would they bother

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike, indeed Magic would allow the existance of any Chemical Warfare Agent but then we would be talking about Mages. The idea of the thread is to discuss whether such substances could be produced and weaponized by common people in our worlds or not, because Magic would just make it too easy =)

True, but even non-magical people are going to use the resources at their disposal. It is an option to consider, depending on the prevalence and accessibility of magic in your world. If you have magic at all, the question can't just end at whether there is a technological means to accomplish something that is needed (like cooling a gas). That wouldn't make sense in the context of the fantasy world because the people trying to achieve the cooling are then ignoring a major aspect of their own world. Even people with no access to magic might hire mages to create the cooling effect, and then achieve the remaining elements of the weapon creation in a more mundane manner.

Of course, if magic is extremely rare or dangerous in and of itself, this could be a limiting factor. But even if it is rare, if anyone would have the resources to employ it, it makes sense a government seeking new weapons would be able to do so.

If you're talking about worlds in which magic doesn't exist at all, then of course you wouldn't take it into consideration. But if magic does exist in the world, and you don't consider logical uses of it to fill in gaps where there are obvious needs and no technology, then I think the world becomes logically inconsistent.

 

[Sheilawisz]

@BeigePalladin: Thanks for your point, that is exactly the idea that I had when I started this thread: What could non-magic people achieve regarding chemical weapons in a low-tech Fantasy world?? I think that the possibilities for classic chemical weapons is very interesting, but Steerpike is making now a good point as well...

Steerpike: I think that you are right: The people would use all the resources at their disposal, and if their resources involve hiring Mages that have even a very limited magical power, the production of chemical weapons could become way easier- The cooling effect needed for Chlorine could be achieved by Mages with a simple cooling spell or something like that, and Chlorine is the key to create other stuff like Phosgene and the Mustard Agent.

Electrical magic powers could also help in this, even if they are not that powerful!! Well, now I'll research about the Arsenic question from Devor and let's see what we post tomorrow =)

 

[Sheilawisz]

@Devor: It turns out that burning Arsenic or Arsenic-containing minerals creates a compound called Arsenic Trioxide, which is part of these Arsenic smokes used in ancient times. When this substance comes into contact with the skin or is inhaled directly, it builds up in the body like elemental Arsenic does and in the end it causes the same kind of poisoning...

So, it must have been a real Chemical Weapon when the Spartans, the Chinese and others included Arsenic in their burning mixtures- Interesting for a low-tech Fantasy world!!

 

[Saigonnus]

Well, real world armies often lobbed rotting animals over the walls of enemy castles in hopes of infecting those under siege with an infectious disease. I have not included it in any of my works but I would if the story required it.

 

[Devor]

Well, real world armies often lobbed rotting animals over the walls of enemy castles in hopes of infecting those under siege with an infectious disease. I have not included it in any of my works but I would if the story required it.

That's cool, but there is typically a difference between biological weapons and chemical weapons, and rotting corpses fall under biological. Trying to spread disease, or dumping sewage into their drinking water, or dumping viral- and bacterial-laden objects into their vicinity, are all biological warfare.

That difference isn't really important when it comes down to it, but I think that's why people aren't responding much to the posts about corpses. They aren't considered chemical warfare.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I am thinking now that starting a thread called "Biological Warfare in Fantasy Worlds" would be a great idea!! It could start a lot of debate and interesting ideas for Fantasy stories =)

A burning combination of sulfur with arsenical minerals would generate a very nasty smoke, and combined with winds in the right direction, it could perhaps devastate the defenders of a fortress or even the population of a town or a small city!!

The Chlorine idea still seems the best in my opinion...

 

[Saigonnus]

I don't think anyone has mentioned things that could potentially taken from creatures that live in many fantasy worlds and as such they could be considered "naturally occuring"... imagine hiring a dragon that has toxic gas for a breath weapon and "bottling it" and then boiling it down for the extract... imagine arrows or jars of the chemical used in catapults. Extracting the venom from a chimera's throwable quills could work too, a paralytic agent that could be very effective as a biological weapon in battle or during a seige.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Chemical weapons obtained from natural substances found in Fantasy creatures?? That's a good one, Saigonnus!! I like especially the idea about a dragon that produces some form of poison gas, then people could bottle it... interesting =)

 

[Sheilawisz]

Another link about a real world story from the Great War: Chlorine in World War 1.