How strong is your concept?

[Philip Overby]

Well, I dunno. Is the robot girl a vampire hunter? (Robots make for kickass vampire hunters. Tricky to bite, and they have no blood.)

If it's just a vampire and a robot, I don't see where you get the drama and conflict. In fact, they would work better together than either one would with a human, for various reasons: Vampires are noctural and robots don't need to sleep; vampires cannot prey on robots, so the girl is safe from him; both can theoretically live for a very long time, etc, etc.

I was just sort of giving an example, but the drama and conflict could come from tons of sources.

a. Robots don't feel, therefore cannot love so a vampire being in love with one couldn't be reciprocated. Problem number 1. Unrequited love.
b. Vampires and robots can live for a long time, yes, but robots could also theoretically break down. More problems.
c. I assume there could be tension IF the robot was a vampire hunter. Tension there.

Any concept can have dramatic tension if you think outside the box a little bit. It doesn't have to be (a) is this therefore (b) cannot happen.

So, yeah, maybe there wasn't much dramatic tension in my original example, but the potential is there, which shows that it's more conceptual than saying "A boy wants a girl to like him."

As for Brooks, I think he has tons of awesome ideas to get writers thinking. More so than other "write a novel" type books.

 

[BWFoster78]

As an idea, "A boy really wants a girl to like him" is, of course, a great one. Like you said, there are tons of stories that feature this idea. However, what Brooks is trying to get across is that ideas are a dime a dozen. A concept has to have something in it to get readers interested and also give you dramatic tension.

So as an idea: "A boy really wants a girl to like him" works. But if someone said, "Let me tell you about my book! It's about a boy who really wants a girl to like him." People may say, "So what?" A concept has to go a bit deeper than that.

I agree, concepts don't have to be intricate or complicated in order to get interest, but they do have to have some kind of hook that gives both the reader and writer something to work with. Like "A boy really wants a robot girl to like him." Then a bit deeper, "A vampire boy really wants a robot girl to like him." Each sort of addition may add layers of drama or conflict.

A vampire boy and a robot girl can't be together right?

Phil,

I understand, but I had two problems with the comments espoused so far on the thread. I'm not sure that either of these were actually meant as much as what I inferred.

1. The relative importance of plot to character. A good character with the right emotion and internal tension can make a story about doing dishes interesting.

2. The implication that you need to have a fully developed concept before you start writing. Granted, that way is more efficient, but, sometimes, you can come up with great stuff on the fly.

Which story is more interesting:

A. The hero stops terrorists from detonating a nuclear bomb in NYC.
B. The hero gets his bicycle back from a bully.

Truthfully, I couldn't tell you. Both have the potential to be interesting or terrible based on the characters and the writing.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I was just sort of giving an example, but the drama and conflict could come from tons of sources.

a. Robots don't feel, therefore cannot love so a vampire being in love with one couldn't be reciprocated. Problem number 1. Unrequited love.

Or better: The robot can simulate emotions in response to stimuli, but isn't sure if her feelings are "real."

b. Vampires and robots can live for a long time, yes, but robots could also theoretically break down. More problems.

On the other hand, robots can also be maintained and repaired.

Plus, same can be said about vampires if they become exposed to sunlight, etc. Their relationship could still last much longer than if they had a mortal human partner.

c. I assume there could be tension IF the robot was a vampire hunter. Tension there.

Any concept can have dramatic tension if you think outside the box a little bit. It doesn't have to be (a) is this therefore (b) cannot happen.

So, yeah, maybe there wasn't much dramatic tension in my original example, but the potential is there, which shows that it's more conceptual than saying "A boy wants a girl to like him."

I don't entirely agree. I do think the vampire/robot thing is a better concept, simply because it's a cool idea, but I don't think it has more inherent potential for drama and conflict.

Everything you just said applies to "a boy wants a girl to like him" as well - either way, you're going to need to elaborate on it.

 

[Graylorne]

Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous 'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch.
Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?

 

[Chilari]

I get the impression that what the author of the article meant was that a concept is an idea plus a conflict, rather than a more detailed idea. Some of those described do seem like great ideas, even with some really interesting characters, but don't actually look at the conflict. Building on Phil's suggestion, this is the idea:

A boy wants a girl to like him.

This is the detailed idea:

A vampire boy wants a robot girl to like him.

And this is the concept:

A vampire boy wants a robot girl to like him, but she is solar powered and he can't go out in sunlight.

The expanded idea misses out on the conflict. It hints at something more interesting by giving the characters attributes which are not normal, but it doesn't specify what the conflict is that arises from these attributes. I get the impression that the conflict is at the core of what makes something a concept, at least according to the linked article.

 

[saellys]

Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous 'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch.
Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?

I had the same reaction.

 

[BWFoster78]

I get the impression that what the author of the article meant was that a concept is an idea plus a conflict, rather than a more detailed idea. Some of those described do seem like great ideas, even with some really interesting characters, but don't actually look at the conflict. Building on Phil's suggestion, this is the idea:



This is the detailed idea:



And this is the concept:



The expanded idea misses out on the conflict. It hints at something more interesting by giving the characters attributes which are not normal, but it doesn't specify what the conflict is that arises from these attributes. I get the impression that the conflict is at the core of what makes something a concept, at least according to the linked article.

I guess my question is:

Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself? You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story. A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.

 

[Graylorne]

I guess my question is:

Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself? You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story. A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.

Isn't it too basic for an adequate concept?

Besides, that every concept needs a conflict, is logical, for every story needs a conflict. 'Boy struggling to get girl' is better than 'boy wants girl', but it would be even better if there was some original twist to it.

Something that convinces that publisher in the elevator to buy your story,

 

[Chilari]

I guess my question is:

Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself? You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story. A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.

Okay, yes, that can be an interesting and relatable story. But the conflict isn't established. What's stopping him from getting the girl to like him? What's the obstacle? That appears to be the criteria by which the article linked in the original post judges a concept. "Boy wants girl to like him" is an idea; "boy wants girl from a social caste or group he does not belong to to like him" presents the conflict, or "boy wants girl to like him, but he's invisible", or "boy wants girl to like him, but her parents are super protective and won't let her talk to boys." There's where the idea becomes a concept - again, as per the definition in the article.

In itself, "boy wants girl to like him" is no more than an idea; I have no idea whether it will be interesting or relatable from that alone. It doesn't tell me what adversity the boy faces, or why his story is any more important than any other boy's story. That's what the conflict does. It tells me why I should root for him, it tells me that something interesting must happen in order for the goal to be achieved. That's what the difference is.

 

[Leif Notae]

Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous 'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch.
Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?

The elevator pitch is limited to about 25 words, a line or two at best on what your project (more often than not a movie/t.v. show) is about.

Concept/Synopsis is more about the back cover blurb. Those liner notes you can use to hook people in and keep them glued.

They are the same, yet different. One is a quick verbal pitch, another is a lengthy (in comparison) written pitch. The thing here is to get you to explore your synopsis and really see if there's more to it or if you are being honest with yourself about having a "story".

I see a lot of excuses about how the reader won't get it, or they have to stick around for 300 pages when the manuscript is only 299.

The bottom line: If you want to be serious about this, stop being an "artist" and start being more "business minded".

 

[Leif Notae]

I guess my question is:

Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself? You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story. A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.

Boy wants girl to like him isn't enough. That might be good for some bubblegum reader, but if you want more, you need to add more and dig more. This is an escape for most people while getting them to identify with the protag on a deep level. It means you are going to do things deeper than the weak boy wants girl to like him.

 

[BWFoster78]

Boy wants girl to like him isn't enough. That might be good for some bubblegum reader, but if you want more, you need to add more and dig more. This is an escape for most people while getting them to identify with the protag on a deep level. It means you are going to do things deeper than the weak boy wants girl to like him.

See, I disagree completely. If the characters and tension and emotion are there, you don't need more.

 

[Leif Notae]

See, I disagree completely. If the characters and tension and emotion are there, you don't need more.

But your statement here implies there is more. It isn't a silent pining, you are saying there is more to the story which makes it more complex than boys desires girl.

 

[Steerpike]

Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you have to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.

If you want to see some brilliant short stories, take a look at the works of William Trevor. They're not fantasy, but great pieces and the vast majority are strongly character driven. He could take the "boy wants girl' concept and make a compelling piece of it without the need to throw in external plot obstacles. The same might be said of some of the stories depicting daily life by John Cheever.

I think BWFoster is absolutely right; if you story is about character, you can do a great job without adding external plot obstacles.

 

[SeverinR]

“That’s not how I write! I like to discover my story as I go along!”

Just as in life, you set goals as to where you want to head in life and in your story.
What happens along the way, bumps in the road, twists and uncontrolled events are life.
Having a strong concept doesn't mean you have to have every breath planned out.

Like a family vacation, you know where you're going, but the events along the way make the adventure, not just the destination. That "Worlds largest ball of yarn", the flat tire where the child says "fudge", and so on, are what makes up the story to go along with the concept, works with but does not ruin it or spoil the fun.

I bet some how, somewhere, someone has stumbled across a good story by writing without a strong concept, but I bet there are millions that tried and failed. My first few stories went no where, for this reason.
Until you get a strong concept, a destination, you are spinning your wheels, or doing doughnuts very fast but going no where.

 

[Leif Notae]

Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you have to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.

Not really, because the plot is the more complex character interaction. Boy wants girl is bland. Boy wants girl, girl wants some other boy, boy wants to prove to girl he is worthy, etc. That is an extension of character and touched with a plot.

 

[Graylorne]

The elevator pitch is limited to about 25 words, a line or two at best on what your project (more often than not a movie/t.v. show) is about.

Concept/Synopsis is more about the back cover blurb. Those liner notes you can use to hook people in and keep them glued.

They are the same, yet different. One is a quick verbal pitch, another is a lengthy (in comparison) written pitch. The thing here is to get you to explore your synopsis and really see if there's more to it or if you are being honest with yourself about having a "story".

I see a lot of excuses about how the reader won't get it, or they have to stick around for 300 pages when the manuscript is only 299.

The bottom line: If you want to be serious about this, stop being an "artist" and start being more "business minded".

But the concept we were discussing was an elevator pitch, not a synopsis. At least that's what I understood. A synpsis is what you send with your manuscript. I write my synopses after I finish a book, not before. A concept goes the other way round, I'd say (though I generally don't write those down).

 

[BWFoster78]

Not really, because the plot is the more complex character interaction. Boy wants girl is bland. Boy wants girl, girl wants some other boy, boy wants to prove to girl he is worthy, etc. That is an extension of character and touched with a plot.

I don't think that boy wants girl is bland at all. It's something that just about anyone can identify with.

Certainly, things will come up to add drama and tension. That can be both internal (boy doesn't think he's good enough) and external (miscommunication leads to boy thinking girl is in love with other boy).

However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story. The fundamental idea of boy wants girl is a sound start. Next, my characters begin to form. I put the idea and the characters together and see what happens, letting the characters lead.

 

[Steerpike]

However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story.

I agree again. I write all my short stories this way. I just start with an idea, and sometimes a very vague idea indeed. Sometimes it's just a picture of a character in my mind, standing somewhere or doing something. I've sold two such stories in the past couple of months, and I expect to sell at least two more in the next couple of months, so the idea that you can't write a short story this way is nonsense.

I'm working on a longer piece that started in just this way, but for that one I've taken time to try to consciously develop it outside of writing (i.e. by outlining or whatever), but for short stories I just sit down and start typing with very little idea of where it is heading.

 

[Chilari]

Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you have to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.

The obstacle doesn't have to be external, it could be that the boy is cripplingly shy and has to overcome that in order to achieve his goal of getting the girl to like him. The point is that there is still a conflict at the core of the concept.

I do agree that you don't need to know the concept when you first put fingers to keyboard (or pen to paper) You might start with a moment, a single situation, and expand from that and through writing work out what the core conflict is (and it might well be someone very different from originally imagined).