Women in fantasy

[Kit]

I guess I hear that, but it seems more applicable to structured "sport" fighting with rules and procedures as opposed to the so-called IRL fight. Boxers bob and weave and duck and keep up their guard because under the rules they can't tackle their opponents and roll around on the ground with them. The IRL fight on the other hand tends to quickly evolve into a ground-based wrestling match with occasional punches and kicks where size and strength dominate over speed and most technique (in my experience anyway).

I did see one IRL fight where a guy used speed and technique to put down someone a fair bit larger. He basically punched his opponent three times in the face while the other guy was still in his "monkey dance" and didn't realize the fight was starting. Game over, that fast. Of course this was in high school and the puncher only served a suspension. Someone does that as an adult in a bar and they're looking at jail time, even if they knew the other guy was going to have a go at them once he worked himself up to it.

Training, as well as sport fighting, has rules because if it didn't, we would all have either quit or died after two days. It doesn't mean that we're wusses, or that we can't- or don't know how to- or are not willing to- fight dirty. It just means that- as my tai chi teacher likes to say- "If you break your toys, you don't get to play with them any more."

If it's a real fight, one must simply switch mindsets and remember that you're not in the ring, and you can do whatever you want.

If a wrestler can competently pin classmates in his or her school for points, s/he will be able to competently pin them on the street while punching them in the face. The skills will carry over.

 

[Zero Angel]

Although we're drifting off topic, I think that this could be right and should definitely be the case in fantasy/sci-fi stories...but I struggle with it from a practical IRL perspective.

Based on the actual fights I've seen and been in, I'd say that people will tend to forget most/all technique that they might have learned and the battle quickly degenerates into a combination of grappling plus occasional punching and kicking. This means the victor is generally determined by a mix of size, strength, ability to ignore pain and perhaps most importantly courage or morale. I don't think I've ever seen an actual fight that ended because one person couldn't continue; they ended because one combatant gave up or ran away (or the fight was broken up at which point people uselessly speculate about who "would have won").

I suppose if a person could keep their head and put some bad-ass martial arts moves on someone before "the clinch" occurred, then technique and speed would beat power and size. But I'll admit I've never actually seen that happen outside books and movies. In most cases the verbal sparring ("the monkey dance") in the lead up to the fight results in the combatants being right next to each other and "the clinch" happens right at the beginning.

A few of the practical things that people who actually train hard for years learn:

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique if you.... um... KNOW any technique. Rednecks fighting in bars and teen hoodlums fighting on the playground do not know any technique. *MOST* people do not know any technique. Because they have not trained. (No, getting into a few drunken fistfights doesn't count. No, watching MMA on YouTube doesn't count. A few months of tai kwon do in the seventh grade counts, but only a little.)

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you have drilled it until you are literally DREAMING about doing it, over and over. It is called "muscle memory". You try to get to the point where you don't have to think much- you just do it.

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you spar all the time, and maybe do tournaments too. Most people in today's western society are not used to hitting or choking each other. Most of them are not used to *touching* each other. Just getting in someone's personal space- or having someone get in yours- is uncomfortable. I roll around on the floor grinding against sweaty men every day- some of whose names I don't even know. I'm not going to hesitate if it comes time to put my hands on a mugger.

As far as the fabled "clinch"- many people are surprised to learn that grapping is one of the best systems for a smaller, less muscular person. My striking against a bigger guy- whose arms and legs are longer than mine and thus he can reach me before I can reach him- is inferior to my work in the clinch. Small people can fight in a barrel. The guy with the longer limbs doesn't *want* me pressed right up against him, where I have plenty of room to work, while he's cramped.

Great points as usual, Kit. Can't emphasize the muscle memory point enough and the Sturgeon's Law allusion.

I mostly do a "sport" fighting, but the reflexes and reactions that you develop are pretty fantastic compared to the untrained.

 

[Zero Angel]

Training, as well as sport fighting, has rules because if it didn't, we would all have either quit or died after two days. It doesn't mean that we're wusses, or that we can't- or don't know how to- or are not willing to- fight dirty. It just means that- as my tai chi teacher likes to say- "If you break your toys, you don't get to play with them any more."

If it's a real fight, one must simply switch mindsets and remember that you're not in the ring, and you can do whatever you want.

If a wrestler can competently pin classmates in his or her school for points, s/he will be able to competently pin them on the street while punching them in the face. The skills will carry over.

Great point again! (ran out of rep to give -_-)

I've made a similar point in different threads concerning fighting. I've never been in a martial arts training situation where the instructor/teacher/sensei did not stop and talk about what to do in the mythic "IRL" fight and how we don't do that in the training because we'd only be able to do it once every few months.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

*MOST* people do not know any technique. Because they have not trained.

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you have drilled it until you are literally DREAMING about doing it, over and over. It is called "muscle memory". You try to get to the point where you don't have to think much- you just do it.

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you spar all the time, and maybe do tournaments too.

Fully agreed, which is why most martial arts systems don't seem very useful in the practical sense. For technique to be useful, it has to be drilled to the level of muscle memory at full speed and strength against an actively resisting opponent. Most martial arts systems are frankly too dangerous to allow practice against an opponent at full speed and strength, so the opportunity to develop practical skills at the muscle-memory level just isn't there.

Exceptions exist of course -- judo was developed precisely because the founder realized this flaw in existing systems and wanted a system that could be practiced "full on". Amateur wrestling also seems to provide a lot that could be of practical use and I'm sure each martial art contains some kind of claim to being able to help in a "real" fight. As you observe, the mere act of getting used to putting your hands on someone and having them put their hands on you could be of some benefit.

All that said, I will observe that the first non-Japanese judo world champion was the Dutchman, Anton Geesink. The 6'6", 270 pound Dutchman, Anton Geesink. While speed and technique can help, in almost everything size and strength play a huge role.

As far as the fabled "clinch"- many people are surprised to learn that grapping is one of the best systems for a smaller, less muscular person. My striking against a bigger guy- whose arms and legs are longer than mine and thus he can reach me before I can reach him- is inferior to my work in the clinch. Small people can fight in a barrel. The guy with the longer limbs doesn't *want* me pressed right up against him, where I have plenty of room to work, while he's cramped.

I'll admit I'm surprised. In amateur wrestling, bigger wrestlers often take drastic steps to "make weight" -- i.e. go down a weight class so they can compete against smaller and weaker opponents where they can utilize a size and strength advantage. I haven't heard of bigger guys in amateur wrestling being cramped or otherwise disadvantaged against smaller opponents, but perhaps it's something specific that the system you're studying has found to exploit.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am in no way denigrating the martial arts and I have enjoyed practicing and training in them in the past. I think they bring many benefits. I do hesitate to afford them too much benefit in the fabled "real fight" because I'm not sure how much they actually provide and the best answer IRL is to use your brain not to get into fights.

At any rate, way off topic and I will say again that in fantasy, small skilled heroes should trump big clumsy enemies (since they're big, they must be clumsy!) every time.

 

[Subcreator]

Since we got off topic again, could a moderator split the fighting discussion into a new thread and place it in Research?

 

[Mindfire]

As far as the fabled "clinch"- many people are surprised to learn that grapping is one of the best systems for a smaller, less muscular person. My striking against a bigger guy- whose arms and legs are longer than mine and thus he can reach me before I can reach him- is inferior to my work in the clinch. Small people can fight in a barrel. The guy with the longer limbs doesn't *want* me pressed right up against him, where I have plenty of room to work, while he's cramped.

Quoted for truth. As a tall guy, I feel most at home at 3rd gate where I have the reach advantage. Grappling is the last thing I want. Especially against my circle-mate McCayla. She may be about a foot shorter and 30 pounds lighter than me, but the girl is a steel trap. Seriously.

 

[Nihal]

So far we got a request for creating a ASOIAF topic and now one for fighting. I think both would be nice discussions!

By the way, I almost forgot, it's buried in my childhood memories. I used to be really good at locking my limbs around people and making them stumble. I'm the youngest daughter and used to "play" fights with my sisters, usually when we were in the pool so almost no harm was done. They were bigger and stronger, having the advantage. Until I managed to lock my arms and legs around them, tripping them down the water. Good times.

 

[ascanius]

Lets see

When you underestimate your opponent you're giving him/her..

1

I know women who can and have taken..

2

He *thinks* he can beat his sister in a fight.

3

To be more precise, physical...

4

Sometimes, a smaller size can..

5

Based on the actual fights...

6, though this is kinda what I was getting at in a round about way.

See, you have your experiences, and I have mine

7

This probably comes from the fact that his manhood is so large he could club a brontosaurus to death with it, and reseed the population of a galaxy with one manly... umm... burst.

But this was funny

I know some smaller women that are quite capable ...

8

Think of it this way. It doesn't matter how strong...

9

Lests see nine out of the nine responses all addressed a single issue strongly. lets go back to what I said.

My points above are simply that physical differences do exist and will impact to some extent how the character responds to problems. Im not saying use such differences to create a character but to keep them in mind.

Really are people so blind and naive, perhaps insecure, that they are unable accept the FACT that men and women are PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT. I cannot understand how out of everything, you took this one thing and focused only on that. You obviously think I am a complete and utter idiot with the intelligence of a slug if you honestly put this much effort into telling me that there are exceptions and this and that. If you cannot read the post, stop and think about what is being said, than come up with a logical reply, and heaven forbid be open to the idea that maybe there might be something to what is being said then WHY THE HELL DID YOU REPLY. Are you really so arrogant that any idea you don't agree with is automatically wrong.

Penpilot is exactly right. Developing your character based on what the average person of that sex, race, age, or whatever, might do is a mistake. Just view the character as a person, develop the character with depth in accordance with the traits you give, and go from there.

Again I quote.

My points above are simply that physical differences do exist and will impact to some extent how the character responds to problems. Im not saying use such differences to create a character but to keep them in mind.

I hope Ascanius never says this to his sister, because it is horribly condescending, insulting, and invalidating ("No matter how long and how hard you work, it won't ever do you any good- you will always lose"... yes, that's what you would be saying to her, it's one of those things women hear you say even though you didn't actually say it).

There are things that people who don't train just can not comprehend. Please give your sister credit- or at the very least, the benefit of the doubt- for years of incredibly hard work that most people (male *or* female) are not capable of.

Getting back to what I was getting at. Thanks KIT This is what I was saying if anyone even bothered to finish reading. Guys and girls THINK DIFFERENTLY. You took a simple statement that for me was simply to communicate information and read much deeper into it to the point you assume that I don't give my sister credit. My guess is you first related it to yourself, possible past experiences, and then how my sister would feel.

And a penis is *not* an automatic ticket to winning every physical fight.

Nor did I ever say it was. I never once said that I wouldnt take a beating in the process, nor did I ever say I could beat my sister who is a black belt. I simply said all it would take is just one punch. Even my other sister I know would give me a good run for my money but I still know it is all it would take.

So, it seems as though all of your evidence is anecdotal. In other words, although it may be true in your experiences, these are just examples of things, not necessarily how things actually are.

O really, Keeping to the spirit of focusing on a single sentence then males and females are in fact NOT physically different. That is great to know, whew, thank you so much for letting me know.

How about this. 10 Ways Men and Women Communicate Differently : Discovery Channel
10 Secrets of the Male Mind : Discovery Channel
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21st-century-aging/201209/differences-between-men-and-women
Understanding Ourselves: Gender Differences in the Brain
Men and Women Use Brain Differently How Male and Female Brains Differ
Brain differences between women and men
Girl Brain, Boy Brain?: Scientific American

FYI Kit I really didnt mean to offend you and that meaning you took out of it is not at all what I meant. I know its hard work and something to be proud of. I am very proud of my sister and what she has accomplished.
And anyone else sorry if this came off harsh but comon

 

[saellys]

For the avoidance of doubt, I am in no way denigrating the martial arts and I have enjoyed practicing and training in them in the past. I think they bring many benefits. I do hesitate to afford them too much benefit in the fabled "real fight" because I'm not sure how much they actually provide and the best answer IRL is to use your brain not to get into fights.

Since someone with loads of experience and education is telling you how much they actually provide, maybe you could just go with that?

 

[Steerpike]

Really are people so blind and naive, perhaps insecure, that they are unable accept the FACT that men and women are PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT. I cannot understand how out of everything, you took this one thing and focused only on that. You obviously think I am a complete and utter idiot with the intelligence of a slug if you honestly put this much effort into telling me that there are exceptions and this and that. If you cannot read the post, stop and think about what is being said, than come up with a logical reply, and heaven forbid be open to the idea that maybe there might be something to what is being said then WHY THE HELL DID YOU REPLY. Are you really so arrogant that any idea you don't agree with is automatically wrong.

Ascanius, based on this paragraph, you might want to consider taking a break from the thread. There's no need for this kind of commentary in the thread, so lets get back on the topic itself and not the people engaged in discussing it.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Agreed that we probably need a new thread on this one...

If a wrestler can competently pin classmates in his or her school for points, s/he will be able to competently pin them on the street while punching them in the face. The skills will carry over.

I don't know... I think the question is whether the wrestler can competently pin them on the street when s/he is being punched in the face. When you're an amateur wrestler, you don't have to worry about being punched in the face -- it's against the rules, so you never train for it and critically the possibility of it happening is not part of your carefully drilled muscle memory. I think the key to porting martial skills into the fabled "street" is probably not so much all the things you are now allowed to do that you've never done before, it's all the things your opponent is now allowed to do that you never really had to worry about.

That said, I still believe that amateur wrestling could provide some people with useful skills for the IRL fight.

And again, for the record, big fan of the martial arts and highly encourage that people practice, train and enjoy them for all kinds of reasons. Just be conscious that size and strength are very seldom irrelevant in a fight. When the untrained 6'4" redneck who benches 350 starts acting up in the bar, it's better for anyone to just call the police regardless of his lack of technique. And it would be very dangerous to assume that because he's big, he's slow.

 

[ascanius]

yeah point taken. A break sounds good too.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Since someone with loads of experience and education is telling you how much they actually provide, maybe you could just go with that?

I didn't realize the martial artists on this board had used their experience and education in real-life fights. My bad.

 

[Steerpike]

yeah point taken. A break sounds good too.

Thank you. I just don't want to see the thread go off the rails again (though it has gone off topic a couple of times)

 

[saellys]

ascanius, just for clarification, here's the thing you said that got such an overwhelming response (emphasis mine).

My little sister is about the same size as me and a black belt. sometimes we play around fighting nothing serious. However I know that if it ever came down to an actual fight I would only have to hit her once. Even though we are the same size and more able to fight I can overpower her. My other sister is taller and bigger than me yet I still know I can take her. I think ignoring such differences is what leads to the super heroin that surpasses the male soldiers.

It's great that you're proud of your little sister, but you might want to reconsider dismissing her skills.

 

[Steerpike]

Agreed that we probably need a new thread on this one...

Yeah, not a bad idea. One of you interested in the topic should feel free to begin a new thread discussing it if you wish!

 

[saellys]

So, who's everyone's favorite hand-to-hand fighting female character in a fantasy story?

 

[Steerpike]

So, who's everyone's favorite hand-to-hand fighting female character in a fantasy story?

Jen Yu?

/10char

 

[Zero Angel]

Who's the monk in Cleric Quintet? Danica Maupoissant? That one!

 

[Kit]

FYI Kit I really didnt mean to offend you and that meaning you took out of it is not at all what I meant. I know its hard work and something to be proud of. I am very proud of my sister and what she has accomplished.

I try to give most people the benefit of the doubt that they didn't (consciously) mean to completely invalidate someone's identity and work; which is part of the reason I wanted to point that out. It hurts me and pisses me off when men (especially men who have no training) say the "I would still beat you" thing, and I can garantee that it would hurt and piss off your sister to hear it from you (whether she will admit that to you or not). So just please don't.

(Note: it's not any better to hear "I know its hard work and something to be proud of. I am very proud of you and what you have accomplished. But if it came to a real fight, of course I would beat you." My aforementioned acquaintance thought that that made it okay- and really couldn't understand why I was still torqued off. Just leave the last sentence out completely.)