Women in fantasy

[Nihal]

@Zero Angel

This kind of sentence makes me believe he needs to better phrase a lot more than one or two affirmations.

Then that's fine, I was just checking if you were aware of the facts of our universe.

It also gives the feeling that, sorry about the wording, he's trying to shove his facts down our throats. What leads to the conclusion that it's useless to debate anything. He's also taking it as an attack against his work. It wasn't even on discussion.

So... whatever.

 

[glutton]

Based on Nihal's reaction, it seems like I once again have failed to explain my setting properly and not gotten across what I'm going for in it. Maybe I should try again.

In the setting of my main series, there is a woman who wields an axe that can cleave a horse in half in one swing and survives having a spear shoved almost all the way through her horizontally from flank to flank. She can still move and defeats the guy who I'll mention next after this happens.

There is also a man who survives having the aforementioned woman cleave deeply into his side with said giant axe, falls into water in his armor after being so injured, and manages to swim to safety. He also jumps off the wall of a fort 30 feet up, rolls immediately to his feet after landing on the ground and runs away like nothing happened.

There is another woman who can crush a man's skull just by palming his head and squeezing with her fingers, and takes a running soccer style kick directly to the face from a King Kong-sized monster, but gets back up later and keeps fighting.

There is a man who is stronger than the above woman, who falls hundreds of feet and isn't even knocked out, but only breaks his arm, and another time falls 80 feet onto a paved surface and pops right back up annoyed.

There is another man who swings around two giant axes much faster than crossbow bolts fly, and can kill 1000 men in a single day.

None of the above has any magic enhancing their physical attributes, which just are that way because they are at or near the pinnacle of human ability in their world. The heroine is not any of the above mentioned. She is first among peers in that group (some of whom are heroes and others villains), as strong as any of them, not as fast as the giant axe guy but fast enough to deflect a crossbow bolt from point blank without seeing it fired, and more durable than any of them. She can run through stone melting dragon breath, survive numerous impalements including through the heart with a giant sword, resist extended electrocution while still continuing to fight, tank enough poison to kill multiple elephants, and so on. She has thrown a man as tall as Gregor the Mountain, but as wide as Andre the Giant, wearing 200 pound armor, over her head like a doll, beaten a giant bear to death with her bare hands, ripped the leg off a 9 foot tall divinely powered champion of a god, killed 500 ogres and dozens of larger monsters in one battle, and slew a 100 ton dragon at age 17 alone and with just her nonmagical sword. Hopefully this gives Nihal a better sense of what I'm going for and why the rules are different. Now back on topic?

 

[glutton]

He's also taking it as an attack against his work. It wasn't even on discussion.

You're actually the one who brought my work into the discussion of Mindfire's idea with the sentence 'And saying you changed the rules of your world so women can stand a chance vs the "faster and stronger" men sounds condescending, at best.'

Also, why are you offended by the use of the word 'facts' in reference to things that, as far as we know, are facts?

 

[Jabrosky]

For one of my fantasy projects I have designed a society which turns our idea of traditional gender roles on its head. In this society, women are nomadic huntresses whereas men are sedentary farmers. A brief explanation of how this society works is on my DeviantArt page:

The Vandu People

Few societies have gender roles as sharply delineated and deterministic as the Vandu people, for the men and women live almost completely separate lives. However, Terran observers show the most surprise not at the extreme division between man and woman, but over which roles they are assigned. To Terran sensibilities, Vandu gender roles appear topsy-turvy, a total reversion of expectation. To sum them up as briefly as possible, women hunt and men gather.

"Vandu" as an ethnonym translates to "human being", but its definition is conventionally based on language. Per this definition, anyone who speaks some dialect of isiVandu as their native tongue qualifies as an ethnic Vandu. However, since the Vandu people have spread across a vast area with contrasting terrains over the centuries, ranging from dry plains to steamy rainforests, isiVandu's dialects are many and do not always sound intelligible to one another. Given this variation, the description of Vandu culture in this article must be interpreted as a set of loose generalizations and may not apply to every Vandu subgroup.

By and large the Vandu have very dark skin as an adaptation to the flaming tropical sun. Those living in open savanna and semiarid regions tend to be even darker than those who have settled in the shadowy rainforest regions. Their tall and lean figures, with elongated limb proportions, help dissipate heat in their sweltering homeland. Vandu people, especially the women, tend to store what little body fat they do have over their rear ends; rigorously developed hind muscles accentuate this steatopygia.

The fundamental division in Vandu society is between men and women as said earlier. Women roam and hunt in nomadic family groups for most of the year while men reside in permanent villages and grow crops. Periodically a female band will visit a male village for commerce and of course reproduction, but even then bands will cycle between multiple villages rather than sticking near one. Some bands do not even stay within one region and instead travel across the whole continent. Permanent and monogamous couples do not exist among the Vandu.

In their early years, Vandu boys and girls both travel in the bands with their mothers and other female kin, but once they approach adolescence the boys must leave their mothers' bands and join the nearest male village. There the men already living there will teach the newcomers how to farm and guard their crops, forge iron tools, weave clothing, and other village duties. Meanwhile, the girls receive from their elders rigorous training to mature them into huntresses. This period of education concludes with a rite of passage called the First Hunt, in which a girl must hunt and kill a certain dangerous animal all by herself to graduate into full womanhood.

Both Vandu female bands and male villages have social hierarchies which privilege elders as spiritual and political leaders who work in council. In general Vandu elders and more experienced individuals regardless of gender have prestige and authority over youth and inexperienced, but relations within the same age-set and experience level tend towards egalitarianism.

 

[Ireth]

I like your ideas for the Vandu, Jabroksy. They kinda remind me of lions. ^^

 

[Jabrosky]

I like your ideas for the Vandu, Jabroksy. They kinda remind me of lions. ^^

In my experience, wild animal behavior can definitely provide ideas for how fantastical human societies might function. I think world-builders in need of inspiration might want to consider looking into animal behavior.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

In my experience, wild animal behavior can definitely provide ideas for how fantastical human societies might function. I think world-builders in need of inspiration might want to consider looking into animal behavior.

Definitely. As I recall, the old Traveller RPG developed at least two alien races by essentially imagining how a society might behave if modeled after animal behavior (the Aslan were based on lions and the Vargr were based on wolves). I think there might have been a third that was developed by imagining what it might be like if cows developed sentience but the name escapes me (needless to say, they were extremely hostile to meat eaters...)

I think the Han race from CJ Cherry's Pride of Chanur series were also based on lions. Cherryh played up the significantly different gender roles vs humans, as did Traveller's Aslan.

 

[Zero Angel]

@Zero Angel

This kind of sentence makes me believe he needs to better phrase a lot more than one or two affirmations.



It also gives the feeling that, sorry about the wording, he's trying to shove his facts down our throats. What leads to the conclusion that it's useless to debate anything. He's also taking it as an attack against his work. It wasn't even on discussion.

So... whatever.

Yeah, that was pretty crazy. I'm the guy that's getting cut off in traffic saying, "Well maybe they're having a baby and have to get to the hospital on time," when in reality that's rarely the case.

The "facts of the universe" line was a bit much. It sounds much more over-the-top than saying something like, "Just wanted to clarify if your humans were as we'd expect from Earth or if there's something inherently different."

@glutton: We've talked about this a couple times in the thread already, but the general consensus seems to have been that having female fighters in a work does not make it "equal" in regards to gender issues. Although ostensibly it sounds as though your female characters are rather BA, being physically equal/superior is only one thing to consider in the pantheon of gender issues. Still, I think the larger objection is not to your work, but rather to what you are presently saying/assuming about females on our planet, Earth.

How much of the "averages" are based on choice or conditioning is not fully understood, so we really can't say that human males would be stronger than human females if, for instance, the society was matriarchal over time instead of patriarchal. Earlier in the thread (or one like it), there was a male member criticizing his black belt female sister, saying that (and I'm paraphrasing) no matter how much she trained he would still be able to beat her, to which almost universally everyone took offense to. This is, I believe, what Nihal was cautioning you against initially.

 

[glutton]

The 'fact of our universe' part was meant to sound witty.

As for the physical differences it's hard to argue against the fact that men gain physical power when given more testosterone than they naturally produce (as do women, who not only become stronger with increased testosterone, but change to look more like men). Men being generally larger than women doesn't seem like it would be a produce of nurture as opposed to nature either, given what we see with regard to sexual dimorphism in animals.

I would say that generally speaking the worlds I write in tend to be more patriarchal than not, but in a setting where might makes right, having the potential to be the greatest champion in battle regardless of gender is pretty valuable...

 

[Zero Angel]

The 'fact of our universe' part was meant to sound witty.

As for the physical differences it's hard to argue against the fact that men gain physical power when given more testosterone than they naturally produce (as do women, who not only become stronger with increased testosterone, but change to look more like men). Men being generally larger than women doesn't seem like it would be a produce of nurture as opposed to nature either, given what we see with regard to sexual dimorphism in animals.

I would say that generally speaking the worlds I write in tend to be more patriarchal than not, but in a setting where might makes right, having the potential to be the greatest champion in battle regardless of gender is pretty valuable...

Speaking scientifically, my point was that although there is a correlation between testosterone and muscle mass, it is not 100% set in stone all the causes of your body producing testosterone. There's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg situation in which it is possible that building muscle mass could increase testosterone on its own, whereas we normally associate people with high testosterone with muscle mass.

In terms of fighting, especially with weapons, muscle mass is not nearly as important as skill.

 

[glutton]

Speaking scientifically, my point was that although there is a correlation between testosterone and muscle mass, it is not 100% set in stone all the causes of your body producing testosterone. There's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg situation in which it is possible that building muscle mass could increase testosterone on its own, whereas we normally associate people with high testosterone with muscle mass.

In terms of fighting, especially with weapons, muscle mass is not nearly as important as skill.

But when a man or woman is given more testosterone, it's physically beneficial at least in the short term. There's been a lot of controversy in MMA as of late about male competitors using testosterone replacement therapy (having their testosterone boosted artificially to 'make up' for decreasing testosterone production due to age etc.) and whether it's fair.

I never said anything about the importance of muscle mass with regard to any specific type of fighting, I just made a comment about physical trends based on observable phenomenon and was 'warned' about it. If the comment about skill vs muscle mass was in reference to my point about my female characters' potential based on their strength, well all the 'elites' in my work have insanely high skill by definition, but if the females didn't have such comparable physical stats, they'd likely be underdogs against guys who are as skilled as them but physically superior.

 

[saellys]

Hmm, the next book in Scott Lynch's series is coming out this year, I believe. He writes some awesome female characters in the sort of fantastical adventure sense of the word. The black pirate lady from the second one whose name I have forgotten was pretty rad. Can't think of any others off the top of my head... I'm sure a new series/stand alone will come out with something good, but I tend not to hear about those until after they've become popular, not before they're published.

Lynch's female characters tend to end up as dupes, corpses, or Manic Pixie Dream Girls. I'm cautiously optimistic about finally meeting Sabetha in The Republic of Thieves, but I'm bummed about Lynch's track record thus far.

EDIT: I just want to take a moment to congratulate everyone on making it to 42 pages without a lock!

 

[Riellfhe]

In response to Chilari's original post on the tenth of march: I actually have a very good example of a male character desperately trying to attain the skill level of a female character: Riell, a female half angel and Shrazz a male half demon. Both are characters from Sherrod Wall's From Heaven to Earth. The two of them have different fighting styles and different methods of conducting themselves based on their races unique needs and their personalities in general. Riell makes it a point to reference Shrazz's irresponsibility and why she was the sole reason he was able to develop past adolescence and mature into a skilled fighter. In turn, Shrazz is constantly amazed by Riell, whose presence on the battlefield stirs feelings of endearment within Shrazz: even when she fights him as she would a sworn enemy. Their romance is one of many reasons I am so obsessed with From Heaven to Earth. Take care all!

 

[glutton]

In response to Chilari's original post on the tenth of march: I actually have a very good example of a male character desperately trying to attain the skill level of a female character: Riell, a female half angel and Shrazz a male half demon. Both are characters from Sherrod Wall's From Heaven to Earth. The two of them have different fighting styles and different methods of conducting themselves based on their races unique needs and their personalities in general. Riell makes it a point to reference Shrazz's irresponsibility and why she was the sole reason he was able to develop past adolescence and mature into a skilled fighter. In turn, Shrazz is constantly amazed by Riell, whose presence on the battlefield stirs feelings of endearment within Shrazz: even when she fights him as she would a sworn enemy. Their romance is one of many reasons I am so obsessed with From Heaven to Earth. Take care all!

I'm not sure that qualifies as trying to catch up to a female character in a traditionally feminine pursuit though, although the maturity theme - I assume you mean responsibility and not irresponsibility - is cool.

 

[saellys]

This article is multifaceted enough to warrant a thread of its own, but I didn't feel like starting one and then rehashing the same things we've been posting about for forty-two pages, so I'll just resurrect this thread to link it.

"'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle, and Slaves' Narrative," by Kameron Hurley

 

[Feo Takahari]

This article is multifaceted enough to warrant a thread of its own, but I didn't feel like starting one and then rehashing the same things we've been posting about for forty-two pages, so I'll just resurrect this thread to link it.

"'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle, and Slaves' Narrative," by Kameron Hurley

I read most of it, but she was going on and on and making the same points that have already been made in this thread. I don't think the narrative is that monolithic or that inescapable.

My current project is set in a world without sexism. The characters never comment on gender, they never treat each other differently based on gender*, and gender doesn't bar anyone from a role or a job. It's not that hard to write--all you have to do is not import the elements associated with "sexism" to your world, just as you would leave out fire-breathing reptiles to avoid "dragons."** It's incredibly liberating to just talk about what I want to talk about without throwing in token "historically accurate" sexism for a setting that isn't even historical. (I'm not the only author I've seen do this, either.)

*There's no romance, so that matter doesn't come up.

**Okay, there's a bit of modification involved. When I realized I had three male parental figures and no female ones, I decided to change one's sex. But that just needs a bit of self-awareness. If you're not currently making all your female characters victims or love interests, you're probably capable of pulling this off.

 

[Mindfire]

At the risk of igniting a flamewar, I'd like to express a relevant thought that has just occurred to me.

I think the bulk of resistance to more/better female characters and stories centered on them is rooted in, not hatred or even dislike of women necessarily, but rather the fear that (in slippery-slope fashion) stories featuring them will eventually eclipse or even erase stories made "for us." As if a proliferation of Kim Possibles will somehow drive Batman and his ilk into extinction. This came to me as a result of introspection actually. In my younger days I had a bit of a love-hate relationship with Kim Possible. I loved the show, but I hated the fact that aside from Wade and the Twins, pretty much all the men on the show were idiots, even those who were supposedly top tier superheroes or secret agents. In the world of Kim Possible, either you're a woman or you're an idiot. Now from this experience I could have empathized with women who find themselves inadequately portrayed in male-dominated entertainment. BUT INSTEAD, I came to the conclusion that if women got their way, all shows would be like Kim Possible.* In order for entertainment for them to get made, the stuff I liked would have to go away. Because it's a zero-sum game, you see. Men and women are fighting each other for dominance and "There can be only one." Now this idea is kind of a dumb idea, but I think many men might have internalized this idea without realizing it. Boys vs. Girls is a very popular motif, and girls are often shown as winning, perhaps as a token gesture to placate feminists. (Or at least that's how it seemed in my childhood. I was like, "Geez, can the guys get some wins once in a while?") But in reality I think this does nothing except to instill varying degrees of resentment toward women. When viewed from this perspective, the resistance to female representation makes sense. If there are only two sides, mine and yours, and only one can win, of course I'm going to support my side. And whenever female characters do break through, they're often depicted as having risen to the top by climbing up a mountain of male corpses, whether literally or metaphorically. Needless to say, this doesn't help matters. Conclusion: if there's going to be any headway made, more gun-toting women won't necessarily do the trick. You have to address the zero-sum game way of thinking.


I await my inevitable crucifixion. The nails are over there in the corner.

 

[Devor]

I think the bulk of resistance to more/better female characters and stories centered on them is rooted in, not hatred or even dislike of women necessarily, but rather the fear that (in slippery-slope fashion) stories featuring them will eventually eclipse or even erase stories made "for us."

To put it in simpler terms, you're afraid that characters like Batgirl are going to begin overpowering your favorite stories, like Batman, and twist them up into something you're not as interested in? I could kind of see that happening for some stories. I think it did happen for some. But with men/women, I think we're past that point with everything but maybe DC and Marvel, which have a lot of legacy characters. Nowadays these are all things that are considered from the inception of a story, most of the time.

I don't really know how much it drives the conversation.

And if you think it's between Batman and Kim Possibles (which I have no idea what that is), two more words: Aang, and Korra.

 

[Mindfire]

To put it in simpler terms, you're afraid that characters like Batgirl are going to begin overpowering your favorite stories, like Batman, and twist them up into something you're not as interested in?

Well not now, obviously. I was at one point. Like ten years ago. What I mean is that whenever there's a huge fanboy backlash against feminist ideas (see the totally beyond the pale hate that Anita Sarkeesian has gotten/continues to get) I think it's rooted in this "us vs. them" mindset.

I could kind of see that happening for some stories. I think it did happen for some. But with men/women, I think we're past that point with everything but maybe DC and Marvel, which have a lot of legacy characters. Nowadays these are all things that are considered from the inception of a story, most of the time.

I don't really know how much it drives the conversation.

And if you think it's between Batman and Kim Possibles (which I have no idea what that is), two more words: Aang, and Korra.

Wait... you've never heard of Kim Possible? She was really popular in the early 2000s and pretty much the poster girl for "girl power!" The show was good, but like I said, I had a few issues with it.

Spoiler: Kim Possible show intro, spoiler'd to save space

The Avatar series is pretty incomparable as far as kids cartoons goes. Both series are nearly flawless, and the writers know how to make their female characters worthwhile without making the male characters idiots. I love them for that. On the contrary, if you look at just about every other show that has "girl power!" as one of its key themes or just focuses on a female character, you'll note that the guys tend to be remarkably lame or downright stupid. I'm not making this out to be cause and effect, but there's a pattern here is what I'm getting at. I think the resistance to more female characters comes from the unfounded belief that women are out to "take over" rather than just be adequately represented. Or to frame it from a child's perspective, all the girls want is a chance to play and the guys are convinced they want to steal all the toys and break them. And most dialogues regarding the issue fail to even address this idea. For those on the male side of the dialogue the "us vs. them" narrative is something of an unspoken truth that is never to be challenged. And from the feminist point of view (as near as I can tell) the prevailing attitude is that to even suggest that the issue ISN'T a zero sum game where one shall rise, one shall fall somehow amounts to over-apologetic boot-lickery, molly-coddling, and kissing up to the misogynist pigs, and of course they want none of that. So what we're stuck with is two sides engaged in a cold war with occasional bursts of open hostility.

 

[Zero Angel]

So basically, Mindfire, since we've pushed so much one way, you're afraid of it snapping back and going too far the other way. It would be nice to find some middle ground, and if you look at rational people making art nowadays, I think there are many succeeding.

I never noticed that in Kim Possible until you just now mentioned it, but Wade was a pretty main character, wasn't he? How many cool guys do you need in the show? Were there bad girls too though? (I really can't remember it. It's been years and I wouldn't describe myself as a fan, just someone that watched it occasionally).