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Best and worst female leads

Easnadh

Acolyte
While I loved the first three Jean Auel books, I rapidly grew tired of the main character, 'Ayra'. She simply became too perfect and too 'unique'. Quite the Mary Sue! The male lead became equally obnoxious.

In my humble opinion, anyway.

I totally agree. She (Ayla?) was perfect in every way and seemingly responsible for every innovation in their society. The first book in particular had some degree of realism as far as she was concerned, but the rest of the books gradually became more and more unrealistic. In my opinion this is a perfect example of an author becoming too attached to their characters and allowing the overall work to suffer as a result.
 

Jess A

Archmage
Easnadh - Agreed. One cannot be solely responsible for every invention or come to every new conclusion. Auel also fell in love with her setting. While the descriptions are, at first, rather intricate and lovely, they become burdensome after a time and I found that I was skim-reading or skipping entire chapters to get to the action/conflict.

Ness - I've never read that series. Not yet! I read Feist's earlier ones - I stole my username from those books in fact. But I have to get a hold of the Empire ones. I've never actually read any of Janny Wurts' books, but I hear that she is good and she is on my 'to read' list.
 

Ness

Dreamer
Little Storm Cloud: I highly recommend it, especially if you are a fan of Feist! I am always so amazed and slightly bewildered at how Feist manages to build such detailed worlds and stories. Let me know what you think after you read them! I haven't read any of Wurts' other stuff either, but will definitely be hunting some down!
 

Jess A

Archmage
Little Storm Cloud: I highly recommend it, especially if you are a fan of Feist! I am always so amazed and slightly bewildered at how Feist manages to build such detailed worlds and stories. Let me know what you think after you read them! I haven't read any of Wurts' other stuff either, but will definitely be hunting some down!

Yes he does design wonderful worlds; I think the familiarity of the 'western' Midkemia and the Oriental (among other cultures) type Tsurani world (I forgot the name already) is highly deliberate to make the Tsurani seem very alien to his mainstream readers, but that is another conversation in itself. I shall read them, in good time! I am still re-reading Magician among about a thousand other novels. I seem to have fallen into the unfortunate habit of reading five or more books at a time. Usually very different genres.

But back on topic - I also quite enjoyed Glenda Larke's character Blaze Halfbreed in The Isles of Glory. I've become hard to please with books of late and it was a nice surprise to pick those books up to be sure! I highly recommend that series. They are also witty in parts.
 

Erica

Minstrel
I agree with you there. I liked Earth's Children, but it got harder to believe with each subsequent installment. I think she tried to introduce some limitations and flaws, both in her characters and in the powers of traditional medicine, in the last book. But by then, it had come to resemble one of those romance novels where the hero and heroine manage to go to the Civil War, The Wild West, Europe and the Far East and meet every important/influential person who existed during the novel's time frame. Oh yes, and keep all their teeth past their early twenties too :)
 

Aravelle

Sage
I know this sounds really childish but....the Little Mermaid, in the original story by Hans Christian Anderson. I admire almost any character that sacrifices them-self, especially when it's for the one they love. :)

It is not childish in any way! I love The Little Mermaid, although some folk would argue that since she was a martyr and "dumb enough to die for a guy", she isn't worthwhile mentioning.
 

Aravelle

Sage
And once again, Kushiel's Dart is neglected. I adore Phedre; she is human, at least as human as D'Angelines go. She is witty, observant, and sometimes her tongue is a bit harsh. She is willing to take risks, make sacrifices, and take the blame when things go wrong. She's also terribly loyal and loving, even if she doesn't always express it aloud.

As for worst female lead, that's easy. It's Anita Blake, assuming you categorize that as fantasy and not porn.
 

CTStanley

Scribe
Phedre Delaunay in Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel Series.
Janelle in Anne Bishops Black Jewels series.
And I've had Sonea recommended in Trudi Canavan's black Magician series.

All good - I don't know many bad ones!
 

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
Regarding Ripley from the Alien films, here is an interesting note from one of the earlier drafts of the first film (Dan O'Bannon draft): The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women.


I think one of the keys to writing a strong female character is to put little importance on gender and just write a strong character in general. This may help avoid many stereotypes and cliches, because many people probably approach female characters thinking of gender. I've been guilty of it. But how many times are authors sitting there thinking 'how do I write a male character?' Quite seldom, I would think.


 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think one of the keys to writing a strong female character is to put little importance on gender and just write a strong character in general. This may help avoid many stereotypes and cliches.

It's an interesting approach, and I don't think it is entirely bad. I will note, however, that by trying to make characters unisex, or by removing all vestiges of what is considered traditionally 'feminine' in order to feel like you have a strong female character, you are essentially de-valuing those aspects of the female character. In other words, you first have to buy into the value system that says traditionally feminine characteristics have little value before making the next step into saying a key to a strong female character is to eliminate these traits.
 

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
It's an interesting approach, and I don't think it is entirely bad. I will note, however, that by trying to make characters unisex, or by removing all vestiges of what is considered traditionally 'feminine' in order to feel like you have a strong female character, you are essentially de-valuing those aspects of the female character. In other words, you first have to buy into the value system that says traditionally feminine characteristics have little value before making the next step into saying a key to a strong female character is to eliminate these traits.


That is true. It's not a be-all, end-all approach, but perhaps one that can help avoid the common cliche trappings of female characters.

I do agree, however, that it is important in many cases for characters to be definitely male or definitely female.

Sarah Connor in the first Terminator film, for example, must begin the story as an ordinary woman and definitely not the "mother of the future" in order for her character to arc and grow into the strong bad-ass she eventually becomes.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yes, I think that's exactly right about Sarah Connor. I feel it is important to writers to understand there are many types of "strong" characters. A strong character may embody a lot of traditionally male traits, or a lot of traditionally female traits, or a good combination of the two, regardless of whether the character is male or female. You can write a strong male or female soldier, or corporate executive, or a strong male or female stay-at-home parent, or what have you. I like the fact that we've seen traditional roles turned on their heads in the past few decades. We seem to see it more in one direction - making females more traditionally male, thereby emphasizing their power and value. I wonder how well a story would do that went the other way?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yes. I have heard her used as an example in an essay on Mary Sues.

The Mary Sue issue is interesting. When learning to write, we're told all the time to stay away from them. And yet you can find any number of them on the shelves, including in popular best-selling series. You mentioned Hamliton. Also, Lee Child and Clive Cussler come to mind. So you have to wonder about the prohibition against them in the minds of beginning writers. Clearly there is a market for those types of books.
 
I wonder how well a story would do that went the other way?

Allow me to go off-topic a bit, and wax rhapsodic on the character of Dale from Horrible Bosses.

There's a certain cliche, seen in films like Nine to Five, of the sweet, innocent young woman sexually victimized by a predatory authority figure. Dale is what happens when you take this character, switch her sex, and change absolutely nothing else. His kind heart, his spinelessness, and his deeply hidden rage at his situation are all written in ways that would normally be considered "feminine".

But although Dale's tendency to bend to others is portrayed as a flaw, his feminity as a whole is not. In fact, the film never specifically discusses it as feminity, and it's never suggested that he's less of a man for it--it's just Dale being Dale.

To amend Woody's above comment, I think the key to initially developing a character is to start with a basic personality that may not have anything to do with the character's sex--a Dale who is a Dale, or a Dani who is a Dani. Once you've got that down, then you can work on how societal expectations affect how he or she behaves. But never assume that the mere fact of being a he or a she is enough to define the character's core.
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
The female elf 'Shadow' from Ann Logston's 'Shadow' series and the female charcters in the various sequels are interesting, I suppose. Shadow is an elfan thief whose 'additional interests' are rather basic (ie 'men') - but she does eventually grow past that a bit, helping out old comrades, taking over the thieves guild, spending time in the forest. But 'men' remain near the top of her priority list - along with very expensive liquor.

The other female characters in the series are not nearly as 'wild' as Shadow; a couple have families (eventually), one runs a city, others attempt to come to terms with unusual magics. Fair bit of 'girl meets boy' type stuff.

As I recollect, Andre Norton in her 'Witch World' series had quite a variety of female characters.
 

Jess A

Archmage
The Mary Sue issue is interesting. When learning to write, we're told all the time to stay away from them. And yet you can find any number of them on the shelves, including in popular best-selling series. You mentioned Hamliton. Also, Lee Child and Clive Cussler come to mind. So you have to wonder about the prohibition against them in the minds of beginning writers. Clearly there is a market for those types of books.

I do not dispute this. Lee Child and Clive Cussler are two of our best selling authors. They barely stay on the shelves the day we restock. Jack Reacher certainly has a wide fan base (why is Tom Cruise playing Reacher?!). But I think the general topic of Mary Sues and Gary Stues and character stereotypes is another thread in itself.

I will state that I did not like Anita Blake.
 

topazfire

Minstrel
I know this is an older thread and Chilari's paper is likely long done, but I have enjoyed reading through all of the suggestions and discussions. There seem to be quite a few books to add to my reading list!

One character and series that I have not yet seen mentioned is Karigan G'ladheon from Kristen Britain's Green Rider series. I think she is a great character with a balance of strengths and faults. She is at times both annoying and charming, which to me, makes her very relatable. I also admire that Britain showed the progression of her skills (both education and fighting ability) so Karigan isn't just some girl who had a sword thrust into her hand and is automatically a blade master! (Which bugs me most with any character...)

There are a few secondary female characters in the book who take up a variety of roles and are just as well rounded. The male characters have not by any means been neglected either and are well fleshed out.
 
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