Erica
Minstrel
Yup-fixed it. My fingers and brain crossed wires somewhere.
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Best and worst female leads
- Thread starter Chilari
- Start date
Yup-fixed it. My fingers and brain crossed wires somewhere.
Amanita
Maester
Actually, I've never ever seen that happen. Dumbledore had to be made gay to do evil out of love after all.
It wouldn't make me too impressed by this character either and I highly doubt that he'd be the only male villain in such a story.
Ravana
Istar
I should think so. The annoying part isn't that the person who's doing it is acting out of love, but is acting out of love that seems totally misplaced. I have to admit I haven't yet read to the point where Bellatrix appears… how does Voldemort treat her? Like a worthwhile human being? Or like a slave… or, worse, a doormat? That would be where "annoying" starts to enter the picture.
Even if he does treat her at least reasonably well–how could you hold any respect for someone who loves a person like him? I don't know that that would at all improve my opinion of her… any more than knowing that Eva Braun sincerely loved her honey improves my opinion of her. And, no, I wouldn't care for it any better if the genders were reversed. "Love" does not equal "blind stupidity," nor is it an excuse for abdicating basic morality.
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Hmm. Not sure you caught the point of that story, LS–Brin wasn't exactly endorsing that position. (That having been said… that isn't one of his strongest works. I hope you've read some of his others, and haven't been turned off from him by that one.)
I'm definitely with you on Lt. Ripley, though. I'd toss Sarah Connor in, too. (A role which, in T2, won the 1992 MTV Movie award for "Most Desirable Female." Think about that one for a moment.…)
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Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
He's cruel and abusive to her just like to everyone else. It's almost like an abusive spousal relationship -- he's only mean to me because I disappointed him! It's my fault! Except Bellatrix is a batshit insane, extremely powerful witch.
You aren't supposed to respect Bellatrix; she's mad (and evil, and delights in torture and cruelty). She's definitely a villain, but she also loves Voldemort, which makes her even more tragic.
Ravana
Istar
What I figured. And, yes, that would "annoy" me. To put it mildly.
Now… if she was after him because of lust for power, and slapped him upside the head whenever he treated her badly, she might have been interesting.…
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myrddin173
Maester
Ravana said:Now if she was after him because of lust for power, and slapped him upside the head whenever he treated her badly, she might have been interesting.
And she would have been dead shortly afterward. In the books or the movies I never realized Bellatrix was in love with Voldy. (AVPM is another matter though I'm more of a Quirrelmort guy myself). I thought she was just plain wacko and liked being evil.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
She's both. She's insane, likes being evil and torturing people, and also loves Voldemort. She's not evil because of her love for Voldemort, they just happen to dovetail.
She doesn't fare any better at the hands of Voldemort than anyone else. In many ways, Bellatrix is a caricature. She's evil and crazy, and her depth doesn't go much beyond that. But, by the same token, I'm not sure that it has to given her role in the story.
I agree with your comments on Brin. I haven't read the book mentioned, but have read other works of his that are quite good.
Ripley is a good female lead. I also think Morgaine from The Gate of Ivrel is pretty good.
Octavia Butler writes some very nice female leads. You're moving more into science fiction territory rather than Fantasy, but her work crosses between the two in my view.
I also like Chance Matthews from Caitlin R. Kiernan's book Threshold. Chance is messed up, she definitely has her issues, but I feel she's a strong character trying to move forward in a bewildering situation. Kiernan doesn't fall into gender stereotypes readily, and her books tend to have pretty good (albeit messed up in some way) female leads (the Red Tree is another).
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Elder the Dwarf
Maester
Sorry to go on a tangent, but this thread got me thinking about female leads who are considered "strong females" in so-called classic literature. Two that spring to mind are the main character in Their Eyes Were Watching God and The Awakening (forget both of their names). They kind of come off to me as selfish, unhappy b****es. Maybe this is just me being an immature teenage guy, but neither are what I consider to be a strong character. Have any of you read these two and if you have do you agree or disagree?
I haven't read the first one you mentioned, Elder.
In The Awakening, I think the main character (Edna) is a strong character in many ways. If you put the character in the context of her society, I think you see that she transforms into someone who is willing to break the bonds of society and the strictures imposed on her. The transition she makes is not something a weak-willed character in her shoes can pull off. Of course, there is always debate over whether the end of the book represents an ultimate weakness to her, or whether it is the opposite. Reasonable minds differ on that one
In The Awakening, I think the main character (Edna) is a strong character in many ways. If you put the character in the context of her society, I think you see that she transforms into someone who is willing to break the bonds of society and the strictures imposed on her. The transition she makes is not something a weak-willed character in her shoes can pull off. Of course, there is always debate over whether the end of the book represents an ultimate weakness to her, or whether it is the opposite. Reasonable minds differ on that one
Elder the Dwarf
Maester
I haven't read the first one you mentioned, Elder.
In The Awakening, I think the main character (Edna) is a strong character in many ways. If you put the character in the context of her society, I think you see that she transforms into someone who is willing to break the bonds of society and the strictures imposed on her. The transition she makes is not something a weak-willed character in her shoes can pull off. Of course, there is always debate over whether the end of the book represents an ultimate weakness to her, or whether it is the opposite. Reasonable minds differ on that one
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Still, I hated the... crap out of that character (trying to cut down on the bad language). To me, she was basically a selfish character that cared very little for anyone besides herself, and when she did that affection was fleeting and inconsistent. People who treat her well she treats with scorn or by betraying them. I just can't understand or support an individual like that. Why does a "strong" woman have to be a... well, b****? (Sorry, that one was unavoidable
.)P.S. I am not arguing with you, just explaining myself and why this character and, more importantly, the admiration people have for her irritate me.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Still, I hated the... crap out of that character (trying to cut down on the bad language). To me, she was basically a selfish character that cared very little for anyone besides herself, and when she did that affection was fleeting and inconsistent. People who treat her well she treats with scorn or by betraying them. I just can't understand or support an individual like that. Why does a "strong" woman have to be a... well, b****? (Sorry, that one was unavoidable
P.S. I am not arguing with you, just explaining myself and why this character and, more importantly, the admiration people have for her irritate me.
Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. I think she was "strong" in the sense of her willingness to defy the societal strictures of the time, but that doesn't necessarily make her a likeable or nice person
Controller
New Member
The girls from the wheel of time. Just annoying
Erica
Minstrel
I agree. I think Rowling was trying to show that a lot of the people who became 'dark wizards' when Voldemort showed up were people who were already rather twisted. Sure, he was charismatic and persuasive, but he also said what they wanted to hear. The thing was, he had a plan and the power to give them the world order that they thought they wanted. I liked the scene in the last book at the Malfoy Mansion. She made it pretty clear that the Malfoys, at least, were beginning to wonder what they had gotten themselves into and were not as pleased with the new world order (and their own place in it) as they'd thought they'd be. Draco, in particular, came off as slightly more sympathetic (though still a nasty little boy).
When I was a kid, I remember liking Luz from Ursula K. LeGuin's The Eye of the Heron as a protagonist, and I'll also note Tenar/Arha from the Earthsea series is good as well. For all LeGuin's initial nervousness about writing a heroine instead of a hero (something I've read her reference in interviews), she does a great job of it anyway. I also really liked Meg Murry from A Wrinkle in Time et al. Smart and resourceful without being always-insufferably-right, described as the "everywoman" teenage girl protagonist decades before (and much more successfully than) Stephenie Meyer tried her hand at it, and able to carry her own story through courage, pluck, dedication, and intelligence.
The worst? Kahlan, the Mother Confessor from Terry Goodkind's dreck. Virgin Mary stereotype combined with the worst, most cliched Action Grrl, able to do exactly the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, and to have "moral clarity" about it as well. (Sorry, Goodkind fans! I'm not one.)
The worst? Kahlan, the Mother Confessor from Terry Goodkind's dreck. Virgin Mary stereotype combined with the worst, most cliched Action Grrl, able to do exactly the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, and to have "moral clarity" about it as well. (Sorry, Goodkind fans! I'm not one.)
Garren Jacobsen
Auror
I am not sure if anyone mentioned this but I liked Sarene from Elantris she was a BA! One of the worst was the elf chick from Eragon.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
I'm reading Inheritance now, and I had completely forgotten that her name was Arya. I think I know which Arya is the better Arya.
Yeah, Eragon's Arya is a pretty bland and uninteresting character. The only reason I'm plowing through the book is to find out how it all ends. (I suppose I could just find a summary somewhere...)
DameiThiessen
Minstrel
I know this sounds really childish but....the Little Mermaid, in the original story by Hans Christian Anderson. I admire almost any character that sacrifices them-self, especially when it's for the one they love.
Jess A
Archmage
While I loved the first three Jean Auel books, I rapidly grew tired of the main character, 'Ayra'. She simply became too perfect and too 'unique'. Quite the Mary Sue! The male lead became equally obnoxious.
In my humble opinion, anyway.
In my humble opinion, anyway.
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Ness
Dreamer
I found Mara from Raymond E. Feist's 'Empire Trilogy' a wonderfully strong female lead. I read the books years ago so I can't remember them entirely, but I remember being completely amazed at her strength and intelligence.
