AndrewLowe
Troubadour
This is very well put... Like I said before either use curse words or don't use alternatives.
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A lack of cursing
- Thread starter Incanus
- Start date
This is very well put... Like I said before either use curse words or don't use alternatives.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
I won't even call them curse words, but clever "exclamations" that fit a certain culture in a fantasy world can be fun. The key word is clever.
Mythopoet
Auror
Uh, the guy was clearly expressing his personal beliefs and opinions. You're not making yourself look better by swearing at and mocking him for it.
I can relate to his point about not being raised to speak that way. I wasn't either. What that means is that for me at least, it's even hard to think profanity or vulgarity. It just doesn't come naturally to me. So it doesn't come naturally to my stories or characters either. I don't see that as a problem, I see it as part of my voice.
But I also think that there are 3 separate types of "swearing" and some of them bother me more than others.
Cursing: cursing is exactly what it says it is. You are cursing someone. Actively wishing them ill. This includes many expressions using the word "damn". Saying "damn you" or "God damn it" is essentially wishing that some one or some thing be cast into hell.
Profanity: this is using words or names for sacred things in a way that is disrespectful or diminishing to them, making the sacred into the "profane". Or any use of some type of serious thing deserving of respect used for simple emphasis or shock value. This includes "taking the Lord's name in vain" and certain usages of "hell".
Vulgarity: using "impolite" or "dirty" words in your everyday speech or using a more "coarse" word for something rather than a more technical or "clean" word. Most usages of the "f word" and "s word" would fit in here. Especially when they have no real relevance to the subject the speaker is talking about.
Now personally, I find more use in my writing for cursing than for profanity or vulgarity. Cursing has its place because it's an action with a meaning behind it. I use it when there is a reason to use it. Profanity requires a character who lacks respect for the sacred. In modern American society, nearly everyone is lacking in proper respect for the sacred (even religious people) or doesn't believe in the sacred at all, but at least in my fantasy worlds this is far, far less common. And I dislike casual profanity so I tend to only employ it with people who understand the implications of what they are saying and in situations where they do it for a purpose. It makes more sense that way in the worlds I develop.
Vulgarity is the type of "swearing" that I intensely dislike. Peppering the f word throughout your conversation doesn't make you more realistic or relatable to me, it just makes me want to avoid you. And I usually feel that resorting to vulgarity for emphasis or shock value is the easy way out. So there will never be much, if any, vulgarity in my writing. I don't like to write about the sort of people who would employ it anyway.
Again, I don't see this as a lack, but as part of my voice and style. I certainly don't suggest that everyone should feel about it the same way I do, but I make no secret that the more profanity and vulgarity there is in your work the more likely I am to not read it. That's just my preference.
AndrewLowe
Troubadour
Honestly, you worded that far more eloquently than Mike Henshaw. I think that Henshaw turned people off by saying that profanity makes your writing 'weak.' As my WiP takes place in the modern world, I actually find vulgarity, by your definition, not only useful, but necessary for the sake of plausibility. I try to avoid overusing f**k and c**t (unless in Britain), but that doesn't mean that I shy away from it either.
I'm not sure if it was in this thread, but I did mention that in a fantasy setting, you should either use real curse words or none at all. Curse words won't necessarily make a fantasy story more realistic, but I think that fake curse words will make it less realistic.
Velka
Sage
There are two instances I can think of where swearing was pulled off quite well:
Battlestar Galactica's "frak" - I know a lot of people said they don't like made up curses, and while I usually agree, for some reason this one worked really well. Perhaps because it is so similar to f*ck, or maybe because it made sense for that world and those characters.
I absolutely loved Firefly's cursing in Mandarin. Using Mandarin was a nice touch to help build the world it was set in and as far as character development goes I can't see Jayne or Mal not swearing.
Battlestar Galactica's "frak" - I know a lot of people said they don't like made up curses, and while I usually agree, for some reason this one worked really well. Perhaps because it is so similar to f*ck, or maybe because it made sense for that world and those characters.
I absolutely loved Firefly's cursing in Mandarin. Using Mandarin was a nice touch to help build the world it was set in and as far as character development goes I can't see Jayne or Mal not swearing.
Drakevarg
Troubadour
Personally, I feel the worst thing you can do to profanity is call undue attention to it, in any direction. Swearing at every possible opportunity just makes you sound like a child who just learned a new word that was made-extra special by knowing their parents hated hearing it, and trying to self-censor sounds unbearably corny.
When it boils down to it, if you're going to swear just swear, and if you're not going to, don't. One of the most annoying aspects of the Star Wars EU (or "Legends" continuity as it's now called) was their tendency to use "blaster bolts" as an exclamation. Not only was it cheesy, it came off as incredibly unnatural because it didn't roll off the tongue smoothly enough to properly express frustration or surprise. Like if someone in our world cried out "shotgun shells!" after stubbing their toe.
The one time I've seen this work is in the Foundation series by Asimov - one character had the quirk of regularly dropping the word 'unprintable' into his speech as a placeholder for an F-Bomb. He and people who spent a lot of time around him were the only people who ever did that so it came off as a character tic more than anything, but at the same time it was used smoothly enough that I occasionally wonder if he was actually saying that or if it was meant to be read as [unprintable] and he really was just such a foul-mouthed character that he swore like a sailor even in professional contexts and everyone was just too used to him to care anymore.
But I don't think anyone who watches child-appropriate media like Avatar or Disney movies and finds it weird when nobody swears or calls attention to their lack of swearing. Placeholder profanity - other than very rarely a successful character or cultural quirk - is a lot more noticeable than simply not swearing or indifferently letting it out. That's why there's so much humor to be had in adding censor bleeps randomly into innocuous dialogue. Because it calls attention to the supposed presence of unacceptable language.
When it boils down to it, if you're going to swear just swear, and if you're not going to, don't. One of the most annoying aspects of the Star Wars EU (or "Legends" continuity as it's now called) was their tendency to use "blaster bolts" as an exclamation. Not only was it cheesy, it came off as incredibly unnatural because it didn't roll off the tongue smoothly enough to properly express frustration or surprise. Like if someone in our world cried out "shotgun shells!" after stubbing their toe.
The one time I've seen this work is in the Foundation series by Asimov - one character had the quirk of regularly dropping the word 'unprintable' into his speech as a placeholder for an F-Bomb. He and people who spent a lot of time around him were the only people who ever did that so it came off as a character tic more than anything, but at the same time it was used smoothly enough that I occasionally wonder if he was actually saying that or if it was meant to be read as [unprintable] and he really was just such a foul-mouthed character that he swore like a sailor even in professional contexts and everyone was just too used to him to care anymore.
But I don't think anyone who watches child-appropriate media like Avatar or Disney movies and finds it weird when nobody swears or calls attention to their lack of swearing. Placeholder profanity - other than very rarely a successful character or cultural quirk - is a lot more noticeable than simply not swearing or indifferently letting it out. That's why there's so much humor to be had in adding censor bleeps randomly into innocuous dialogue. Because it calls attention to the supposed presence of unacceptable language.
evolution_rex
Inkling
I probably wouldn't even notice a lack of cursing while reading. What would be noticeable, though, is a lot of 'gosh darnit' and 'oh fudge', which would be distracting while reading.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
And yet just as appropriate for a character to say as any profane word. I've been known to exclaim both of those as well as frickn frackn fudge-whacker as well as one of my favorites, higgly friggin piggly... its an ever useful classic.
But fact is, profanity can distract some readers as much as or more than fake curses.
I find this concept amusing... F U, translated into the native tongue of people in my world:
"Fornicate you, man!"
"Fornicate me? Are you soliciting intercourse?"
"Mother fornicate you, mother fornicator!"
"Dude... what? Are you offering your mother, or suggesting I've had intercourse with a mother... which I have, just not my mother... or yours... I don't think, but seriously, you've confused me, I'm out of here."
TheKillerBs
Maester
I think it all depends on the context. For example, someone from early-middle 20th century America would sound just about right if they dropped a few "gosh darn-its" here and there, but it would sound absolutely jarring coming from a modern soldier. F***s and s***s would be more believable (and almost expected) there.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
Again, totally depends, some very religious soldiers out there.
Brithel
Dreamer
Just so you know swearing was more common than you thought, especially in the army. The reason we think otherwise is probably due to the lack of written swear words in books and newspapers, which wouldn't be allowed to include these words under obscenity laws. Here is an interesting /r/AskHistorians thread on the matter of swearing in the past.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
Swearing has probably always been common, and what is considered vulgar over time will change. Social setting is also a big determiner. If I'm at my business, I speak one way, around my kids another, and dart or pool league with "the boys" a completely different and vulgar language shift takes place, LOL. or did, now with kids... darts and pool are pretty much wiped out, heh heh.In general, writing has been done as if in "polite society" rather than stuck in a foxhole, and marketing wise, it is just fine to stay there, particularly outside of character voice.
If you look at your fantasy world and the language you use as a "translation" of sorts... there are some things which would probably come off as insults cross culturally... call someone a S-eater in writing in pretty much any language and they're going to get the insult, F'r on the other hand, is a more complex translation, especially if you consider non-human cultures.
I tend to keep to the vulgar and the blasphemous because they are semi-universal. In my world where religion is huge, beseeching a specific god to D someone would be about as bad as it gets (them are fightin' words!), whereas simply gods D you would be more of a colloquial, hanging out with your buddies appropriate insult. To say Gods be D'd, would be a mighty insult in front of a priest. Vulgarities won't get you killed most oft, but the last line might if used at the wrong point and you didn't have the political might to stave off the church.
If you look at your fantasy world and the language you use as a "translation" of sorts... there are some things which would probably come off as insults cross culturally... call someone a S-eater in writing in pretty much any language and they're going to get the insult, F'r on the other hand, is a more complex translation, especially if you consider non-human cultures.
I tend to keep to the vulgar and the blasphemous because they are semi-universal. In my world where religion is huge, beseeching a specific god to D someone would be about as bad as it gets (them are fightin' words!), whereas simply gods D you would be more of a colloquial, hanging out with your buddies appropriate insult. To say Gods be D'd, would be a mighty insult in front of a priest. Vulgarities won't get you killed most oft, but the last line might if used at the wrong point and you didn't have the political might to stave off the church.
- Thread starter
- #33
Incanus
Auror
Interesting. Thanks again to all.
It seems this, like just about everything else one decides upon in their writing, gets a variety of reactions and viewpoints, with some suggesting using 'known' curse words and some suggesting creatively inventing them, and some suggesting avoiding them altogether.
For now, I'll be leaving the common curse words out, but keeping an eye out for a creative substitute (such a thing would have to sound dead-on to me). I'm trying to cultivate a more 'olden-time' feel (for lack of a better term), and most curse words sound modern to my ear (wrongly or rightly). For me it is not a matter of weak writing, morals, relatability, or how I was brought up. It is strictly a matter of tone and feel.
It seems this, like just about everything else one decides upon in their writing, gets a variety of reactions and viewpoints, with some suggesting using 'known' curse words and some suggesting creatively inventing them, and some suggesting avoiding them altogether.
For now, I'll be leaving the common curse words out, but keeping an eye out for a creative substitute (such a thing would have to sound dead-on to me). I'm trying to cultivate a more 'olden-time' feel (for lack of a better term), and most curse words sound modern to my ear (wrongly or rightly). For me it is not a matter of weak writing, morals, relatability, or how I was brought up. It is strictly a matter of tone and feel.
evolution_rex
Inkling
I think another guy in the thread mentioned if it was a character trait, then it's fine. And I'd agree with that. It's more so when everyone does it, because not everyone has the same vocabulary. An example would be in the terrible movie The Happening, which had an R rating but a random character says 'Cheese and Crackers' instead of 'Jesus Christ'. If the character was established to be religious or unwilling to curse, the line would have made sense. But it was an unimportant side character who had one line, and thus it became unintentionally funny and out of place.
AndrewLowe
Troubadour
SOOOO... I just did an actual word count on my last two manuscripts:
The Artificer (140,000 words)...
F**k = 1/450 words
S**t = 1/700 words
D**n = 1/200 words
B***h = 1/2000 words
C**t = 1/1200 words
Working Title (20,000 words ATM)...
F**k = 1/6,667 words
S**t = 1/800 words
D**n = 1/800 words
B***h = 1/20000 words
C**t = 0 so far
So obviously I am using a lot less vulgarity in my recent manuscript. Especially a lot less "f**k." You can see that all other words (except for b***h and c**t) have gone up proportionately. I still am trying to avoid falsifying the amount that a character would swear. Still, I knew that The Artificer was extremely gratuitous (although in my eyes, realistic). So, this time around, I've opted to use some new techniques:
1. I spend more time describing (and showing) characters, instead of letting them just babble. I believe that dialogue is one of my strong points, but I can't let myself use it as a crutch either. I mentioned this story on another thread somewhere, but when I started my current piece, I wrote a first chapter (apx. 2,600 words) which I thought was pretty good before reading back over it. When I went back, I realized that while my dialogue was good, the pacing was way too fast. I went back and added a lot of extra material about the scenery and the thoughts of the character. Now at 4,500 words, I believe that this is the largest editing impact I've ever had on a piece of writing (well, at least my own writing).
2. F**k is generally a very strong word to use. I (and many people in my circles) say it frequently. I don't really swear to excess, but it's probably comparable to double the rate of swearing in the Artificer. I've noticed that among young peoples, this tends to be a quite common frequency (even among readers like us!). I remember a close friend once asking me why I swear so much when I have "one of the largest vocabularies" of anyone they knew. I couldn't really provide an answer, so for that reason I'm now trying to be more intentional about where I give my "f**ks" (sorry, I couldn't help myself). Still, I try to avoid using alternative swear words. Instead I use 'less offensive' words in places where they might not generally be found:
3. I've made a new rule for every time I use f**k or c**t in my writing... If I can't explain to myself why the word needs to be there, I'll use an alternative. So far in the manuscript, I've used f**k three times. The first time, I opened a chapter with a quite contemptible character (implied to be a date rapist) using the word in a derogatory way towards one of his employees. The second time it is used, that employee is in a nihilistic drunken stupor. The third time, that employee is pointing a gun at his employer (my writing is quite dark, I know...) I have yet to find a use where c**t feels necessary, but I'm sure I'll get there. Maybe I will once I start writing in some British characters, you bloody w*nking humbugger cousin of a c**t.
Anyways, I hope this could be helpful. I know my last post was a bit abrupt, but I hope that this offers some explanation for how I put this all into practice
The Artificer (140,000 words)...
F**k = 1/450 words
S**t = 1/700 words
D**n = 1/200 words
B***h = 1/2000 words
C**t = 1/1200 words
Working Title (20,000 words ATM)...
F**k = 1/6,667 words
S**t = 1/800 words
D**n = 1/800 words
B***h = 1/20000 words
C**t = 0 so far
So obviously I am using a lot less vulgarity in my recent manuscript. Especially a lot less "f**k." You can see that all other words (except for b***h and c**t) have gone up proportionately. I still am trying to avoid falsifying the amount that a character would swear. Still, I knew that The Artificer was extremely gratuitous (although in my eyes, realistic). So, this time around, I've opted to use some new techniques:
1. I spend more time describing (and showing) characters, instead of letting them just babble. I believe that dialogue is one of my strong points, but I can't let myself use it as a crutch either. I mentioned this story on another thread somewhere, but when I started my current piece, I wrote a first chapter (apx. 2,600 words) which I thought was pretty good before reading back over it. When I went back, I realized that while my dialogue was good, the pacing was way too fast. I went back and added a lot of extra material about the scenery and the thoughts of the character. Now at 4,500 words, I believe that this is the largest editing impact I've ever had on a piece of writing (well, at least my own writing).
2. F**k is generally a very strong word to use. I (and many people in my circles) say it frequently. I don't really swear to excess, but it's probably comparable to double the rate of swearing in the Artificer. I've noticed that among young peoples, this tends to be a quite common frequency (even among readers like us!). I remember a close friend once asking me why I swear so much when I have "one of the largest vocabularies" of anyone they knew. I couldn't really provide an answer, so for that reason I'm now trying to be more intentional about where I give my "f**ks" (sorry, I couldn't help myself). Still, I try to avoid using alternative swear words. Instead I use 'less offensive' words in places where they might not generally be found:
"What the s**t?"
"Damn you!!"
"You bastard!"
"Piss off!"
"S**teater!"
"FornicatingWithMothers son of that s**tfaced respectable woman!!!!!!!!"
"Damn you!!"
"You bastard!"
"Piss off!"
"S**teater!"
"FornicatingWithMothers son of that s**tfaced respectable woman!!!!!!!!"
3. I've made a new rule for every time I use f**k or c**t in my writing... If I can't explain to myself why the word needs to be there, I'll use an alternative. So far in the manuscript, I've used f**k three times. The first time, I opened a chapter with a quite contemptible character (implied to be a date rapist) using the word in a derogatory way towards one of his employees. The second time it is used, that employee is in a nihilistic drunken stupor. The third time, that employee is pointing a gun at his employer (my writing is quite dark, I know...) I have yet to find a use where c**t feels necessary, but I'm sure I'll get there. Maybe I will once I start writing in some British characters, you bloody w*nking humbugger cousin of a c**t.
Anyways, I hope this could be helpful. I know my last post was a bit abrupt, but I hope that this offers some explanation for how I put this all into practice
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AndrewLowe
Troubadour
Wow, that was a bloody longwinded freaking piece of post... I need to catch my breath.
AndrewLowe
Troubadour
I just lost it at the "extreme prejudice" bit!
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
You mean the Happening wasn't a comedy? Sheeeoot, coulda fooled me. A terrible comedy, but I'm not sure what the heck else it could be called... well, ok, plenty of derogatory terms, but as far as genre goes, yeah, comedy.
Miskatonic
Auror
I'll take regular cursing over a writer's attempt to create an alternative. Usually they end up being pretty bad. It's not like people didn't curse in the distant past.
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