Ask me about swords.

[Guy]

Those times it's been done it's usually a short sword combined with a long sword. Some southeast Asian martial arts use twin short swords. You could maybe research that some. Brian Boru's son supposedly used twin swords at the battle of Clontarf. Generally, though, twin longswords just aren't terribly practical. Short swords are maneuverable enough for it to work. The longsword/short sword combo makes sense because if the enemy gets past the longsword the short sword is there waiting for him.

Of course, in writing fantasy, you get a certain amount of poetic license. You don't have to be 100% historically accurate.

 

[2WayParadox]

What about bastard swords?

 

[wordwalker]

Historically, "longsword" is an actual term: it takes in most swords sized so you can swing them two-handed but don't have to. (Katanas probably count here, as a light and too-sharp example.)

The term "bastard sword" got stuck for this in gaming, but really a bastard or hand-and-a-half sword is a longsword with a hilt just big enough for one hand plus a couple more fingers to grip.

(Edit: Now that I think about it, that name might have been a pun too. Yes it's a bastardization between two hilt lengths, but it also could be a joke about illegitimate children having to save money on their swords. Call it a "budget cuts" sword--oops, another pun. )

Anyway I think longswords are the weapons Malik had in mind here:

That said, you're rarely "swinging" a two-handed greatsword. Most of the time it was wielded one-handed (unless it was a true, six-foot zweihander or Claymore) and a good deal of the two-handed work is done by changing grips; you can slash and parry by gripping the pommel with the webbing of your thumb and forefinger of your off-hand and levering the tip, which makes for much better point control than fighting with it like it's a baseball bat.

 

[2WayParadox]

My question remains: would this added hilt length be an advantage to your dual wielding swordsman?

 

[wordwalker]

If he were dual wielding, he'd probably prefer a bastard sword to a full hilt. He'd only have his second hand free if he had to drop that other weapon anyway, and all a full hilt does is have more chance of getting in the way of his other arm as he coordinates the two blades' moves.

 

[wordwalker]

Also, I have to add: dual wielding sounds right for the duelists and assassins you seem to have in mind (or a commando like Drizzt), but not soldiers. It seems to take a lot of work to do right... and on a battlefield you'd still find half your opponents coming at you with a big long spear. Not something you want to risk sidestepping, again and again and again, because you don't have a weapon long enough to match them or a shield to block them.

 

[2WayParadox]

You're right about it taking a lot of work to master, Musashi describes himself as going through years of solitary mountain training spent endlessly drilling his moves. The goal in mind was to become as proficient as a full fledged swordsman with each arm. So on a battlefield a dual swordsman should be able to fend for himself just fine using only one sword.

About the longsword shortsword combo, what exactly is a shortsword, beyond the obvious? And makes it different from say a longknife or a long dagger? Is it nothing but a miniature sword meant to be wielded by people of smaller stature?

 

[Guy]

You're right about it taking a lot of work to master, Musashi describes himself as going through years of solitary mountain training spent endlessly drilling his moves. The goal in mind was to become as proficient as a full fledged swordsman with each arm. So on a battlefield a dual swordsman should be able to fend for himself just fine using only one sword.

About the longsword shortsword combo, what exactly is a shortsword, beyond the obvious? And makes it different from say a longknife or a long dagger? Is it nothing but a miniature sword meant to be wielded by people of smaller stature?

One of the maddening things about researching ancient weapons is terms and definitions are rather fluid. What's the difference between a long knife and a short sword? It's pretty much a matter of opinion. When someone says "short sword" I tend to thing Roman or Greek swords, a blade around 17 - 25 inches in length. There were renaissance martial arts that used sword and dagger combinations. There was a type of gladiator that used twin daggers, but that also could've been twin short swords. Asian short swords are often weapons westerners would probably consider machetes.

Bastard swords are another example of the fluidity of definitions and terms. To some people, bastard sword is synonymous with longsword. To others, a bastard sword is a hand-and-a-half sword, meaning the blade was about the same length as a one handed sword, but the hilt is long enough to accommodate two hands.

Twin sword use did exist, it just wasn't the norm. Sword and shield made a lot more sense, but twin sword use existed and there's no reason you can't use it in a story.

 

[wordwalker]

Agreed, there's a lot of confusion. People in a period didn't usually name a weapon type clearly, or change that name at just the moment it evolved into something new, and then picking one name to apply to different cultures' similar weapons... It's hitting a bullet with a bullet while riding on a third bullet.

Still, I think Skalagrim's definition of a longsword saves more trouble than not, as a starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0GBKaMcgE.

And it makes sense that not many cultures would have a solid term for "short sword"-- they'd just be swords, where everyone used one that was on the short side. --Except the samurai, of course, who had room to carry two sizes because they didn't keep shields.

Still, samurai used the wakizashi as a backup or close-quarters weapon, they didn't usually dual-wield it with the katana. That Mushashi did is proof of how hard he worked; he also liked to learn or create new weapons just to keep people guessing.

 

[2WayParadox]

thanks for the video link, it led me to another one of skallagrim's videos, specifically addressing dual wielding.
He goes over a lot of the points that have been made so far and he also described something that I think is probably more suited to an assassin: a combination of a sword, an armshield or a buckler, a katar and a dagger. I like that, it sounds versatile while also having defensive capabilities without being too encumbered by the shield.

It does have some downsides I feel. That's a lot of gear to pull out, it goes from dual wielding to quadruple wielding essentially. It's not something you can do without some preparation time.

 

[Guy]

Got to love Skalagrim.

 

[Laurence]

In many films I see/hear swords that give off a beautiful ringing/humming noise when swung through the air, even at a low speed. Are any real swords at all like this or is this complete fiction?

 

[Ireth]

In many films I see/hear swords that give off a beautiful ringing/humming noise when swung through the air, even at a low speed. Are any real swords at all like this or is this complete fiction?

This video may be of interest:

 

[Laurence]

I actually meant while the sword was just moving slowly through the air rather than being drawn/put away but thanks for the link - has some other really interesting videos. I'm afraid I can't remember what movies this happens in - possibly Kill Bill...it's definitely not something that would happen in real life though. It's more that I'm thinking, "I wonder if, at a particular sharpness unobtainable in the real world, this could happen.'

 

[wordwalker]

It's called Audible Sharpness, and it's mainly used just for drama. Nobody expects a sword to make that sound, but it's a fun way to use hearing to imply "don't forget, that thing's wicked sharp." It might be most useful when someone's dodging a blow, to give the viewer the sense of the air (or at least the awareness that that was a sword) swooshing by.

 

[Tom]

I actually meant while the sword was just moving slowly through the air rather than being drawn/put away but thanks for the link - has some other really interesting videos. I'm afraid I can't remember what movies this happens in - possibly Kill Bill...it's definitely not something that would happen in real life though. It's more that I'm thinking, "I wonder if, at a particular sharpness unobtainable in the real world, this could happen.'

I was curious about this, so I dug my weapons out of my gear bag and conducted a test.*

Results:

All my epee, foil, and cavalry saber make are a dull whooshing sound that has a very slight whistle to it--that's going at a moderate speed. When I'm whipping the epee and saber through the air at a very high speed, they produce a more pronounced whistle that has a hard, almost metallic edge. If I'm swinging it fast enough, the foil, which is the thinnest, will make a high, warbling sound like a wire being plucked.

Conclusion:

So the idea of a sword making an audible "sharp" sound is slightly feasible, but the real deal sounds nothing like what you hear in the movies.


*Do not attempt to replicate this experiment if you have dizziness, nausea, impaired inner ear, limited hand-eye coordination, or anger management issues.

 

[Guy]

In many films I see/hear swords that give off a beautiful ringing/humming noise when swung through the air, even at a low speed. Are any real swords at all like this or is this complete fiction?

At low speed? No. A quick swing with a sharp broad sword with the edges properly oriented will make a fairly chilling sound. Not a ring, and I wouldn't really call it a whoosh or a swish. It's different from the sound you get swinging something like a fishing rod or a whip. I tend to think of it as the blade singing.

 

[ArenRax]

what would you call one of those huge wide and really long swords? sort of like a two handed sword but wider and a bit taller?
im sure its a fictitious and not a real life one but im wondering what you'd call it.

 

[X Equestris]

what would you call one of those huge wide and really long swords? sort of like a two handed sword but wider and a bit taller?
im sure its a fictitious and not a real life one but im wondering what you'd call it.

You'll have to be a bit more specific.

 

[Queshire]

Well, there's the Japanese Zanbato or Horse-killing sword. It was meant to defeat Calvary by killing the horse under them.