Ask me about swords.

[skip.knox]

Without a doubt. I think in every fight scene I've done so far, I've thrown a curve or two into the mix. Not for realism, just for the drama. Because I like having the character think they know what they are doing, or what they ought to do, only to have something shift under their feet and have to adjust. Just seems like a better way to write the scene.

I can't really pretend to realism, never having even witnessed a fight much less been in one. Having those experiences changes how one writes a fight scene, without a doubt. But I'm not sure such experiences are necessary and sufficient. Good writing is good writing. The good writer who has also fought simply handles the thing differently. To me, the classic example is the opening pages of Mailer's The Naked and the Dead. I am certain he would not have written that had he not seen it for himself (goes for the whole book, really).

 

[Devor]

I know, and I wasn't talking about that. What I meant is, just because there exist techniques to counter spear while using a sword does not mean a swordsman can expect to win against a spearman most of the time.

That's more of a fair statement, and I didn't interject because I wanted to argue that swords were better or as good or whatever - that's not an argument I'm really interested in. I was only saying, you can't dismiss a swordsman's grapple techniques out of hand. They are a basic part of sword fighting, used and recommended by different combat treatises even when it's sword vs. sword. It's not some kind of desperate untested play like it was made out to be.

IRL, there are way too many factors in play here, like armor, is there a shield, experience, is it 1 on 1 or is there a formation, combat role... battles are won with mixed armaments for a reason.

One aspect of sword technique I've not seen mentioned is this: it's a literary tool. A great many works have used training sequences as a way to provide insight into a character, or build out the world, or even just introduce some drama. It doesn't much matter whether it's real-world effective (unless the story is about real-world), it's about the insight or the building or the drama.

So, on that score, any and all manuals, illustrations, and anecdotes are good grist for the writerly mill.

I try to start with realism and then adapt it to my needs in the story. So if I had a fight between a swordsman and a spearman, I'd want to try capture what the characters thinks of the situation, and their choices leading up to it, and then try to have a realistic take on how whichever character wins - but if the action needs to slow down for a bit of cool dialogue, I'll do that too.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

This is very interesting and even on the subject!

 

[Devor]

^ I watched the first video, haven't gotten to the second. A few takeaways:

As they mentioned in the video, nobody was particularly experienced with using the spear, or with fighting against the spear. And nobody was experienced with shields. That makes everything a little iffy.

Spearmen were also told not to use their spear as a quarterstaff, which would be part of using a spear.

The range advantage of the spear is clear. Closing on a spear is difficult, at least without a shield.

Spear and Shield, at least 1 on 1, was much weaker than I expected. That's important because without a shield a soldier is vulnerable to archers.

Am I mistaken, or did the longer spear lose more than the shorter one?

I saw someone draw a sidearm and win in a different video (they were showing halberd techniques, talk about a beast of a weapon), but to me it looks like you've got to be very well trained to do so effectively in a fight like this, like an advanced technique. There's just no time to think about changing things up if you're not trained to. Most spearmen are not going to draw a sidearm the second you close.

 

[Prince of Spires]

As they mentioned in the video, nobody was particularly experienced with using the spear, or with fighting against the spear. And nobody was experienced with shields. That makes everything a little iffy.

This is usually the main take-away I get from these modern comparisson videos. The thing with HEMA is that it's almost exclusively practiced in an equal setting. You study and train Fiore with your longsword against someone who does the same (or whatever). They don't focus on "real" combat situations, where your practice fighting a spearman on a battlefield. And the few examples I've seen do show that a shield (or some other armour) greatly changes the outcomes of the fights.

I think the main take-away from those videos (or even the only one really) is that a spear is easier. It has a shallower learning curve than a sword. It's a stick with a pointy bit. In a fight, keep your opponent at a distance and poke him with the pointy bit. But that's just the unskilled lesson you'd get on day 1 in the army.

 

[Devor]

I think the main take-away from those videos (or even the only one really) is that a spear is easier. It has a shallower learning curve than a sword. It's a stick with a pointy bit. In a fight, keep your opponent at a distance and poke him with the pointy bit. But that's just the unskilled lesson you'd get on day 1 in the army.

That definitely seemed true for sword vs spear. The untrained spearmen had no problem holding off the experienced swordsmen. Maybe there's techniques for closing on a spearman that the swordsman didn't know - but then there would also be counter techniques which the spearmen also didn't know. So I'll take that section of the video at roughly face value.

But when you add the shield, I thought the skill issue became disappointing. We're not talking heavy training issues. We're talking the next guy over nudging you and going, "Hey, you're holding that spear like an idiot," or "Keep your shield in front of you moron." Most soldiers used shields, and that limits how you use either weapon, but especially a spear. So I'd really like to have seen what would've happened if the fighters had even an hour of training with these weapons.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Sparring with swords and not being used to grapple moves is a bit like sparring in Tae Kwon Do and running into someone who uses Jujitsu on you just to mess with your head and get a good laugh as they crush your ribs into your lungs. I've been on the wrong end of that, heh heh. That was much less fun than the time I went flying about 4-feet like I was a cartoon.

Punch! Kick! Holy Shit!

The grapple is a wonderful kill/victory move. Not "by the rules" but damned effective, heh heh. A real-world fight I saw once between two dangerous people, one was clearly "more talented," but the other was bigger and defensive until the opening came... Done. It took 3-4 minutes before it came, but beast mode defeated skill mode. It was ugly. Throw, crush, pound. Both walked away, kinda sorta, with the winner arrested and the loser heading for the hospital, but the latter can be thankful he knew how to protect his head and that they ended up on dirt instead of concrete.

I was reading an article or something on knife fighting the other day and how the overhand stab is heckled by some folks, and yet in the real world where knife fighting is common and survival is on the line, prisons, the overhand strike is favored. Why? It's the most powerful. The throw with a sword or spear (or the hook and trip with halberd) puts the enemy on the ground for the most effective strike, overhead and coming down to focus all the force of the blow into the tip with the victim between the point and a hard place.

I love staff fighting, it's great, and a basic spear is simply a staff with a point. Combat is situational, and if I can carry only one weapon that does not go BANG! and I don't know the situation I'll need it in, it's going to be a sword. But, I wouldn't turn down a spear either, a fine weapon.

That said, sword and spear here are poorly defined, and how one is fighting with them. Spear and shield is far different than a two-handed spear technique, and lengths vary like crazy. And no, if it has a sword or ax attached to the end, I don't consider it a spear. Sword, what do we mean? Rapier, long sword, war sword, gladius, arming sword?

If I was young again and my shoulders weren't a mess, I'd be getting my hands on a halberd to get a feel for it, even if I never managed to get good with it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Irony is ironic. It was martial arts - both Tae Kwan Do and the random stuff my dad taught me - that did this to my shoulders. And even then, I'm still determined to expand on my status as a single-sword writer. Because epic!

 

[Nighty_Knight]

Sparring with swords and not being used to grapple moves is a bit like sparring in Tae Kwon Do and running into someone who uses Jujitsu on you just to mess with your head and get a good laugh as they crush your ribs into your lungs. I've been on the wrong end of that, heh heh. That was much less fun than the time I went flying about 4-feet like I was a cartoon.

Punch! Kick! Holy Shit!

The grapple is a wonderful kill/victory move. Not "by the rules" but damned effective, heh heh. A real-world fight I saw once between two dangerous people, one was clearly "more talented," but the other was bigger and defensive until the opening came... Done. It took 3-4 minutes before it came, but beast mode defeated skill mode. It was ugly. Throw, crush, pound. Both walked away, kinda sorta, with the winner arrested and the loser heading for the hospital, but the latter can be thankful he knew how to protect his head and that they ended up on dirt instead of concrete.

I was reading an article or something on knife fighting the other day and how the overhand stab is heckled by some folks, and yet in the real world where knife fighting is common and survival is on the line, prisons, the overhand strike is favored. Why? It's the most powerful. The throw with a sword or spear (or the hook and trip with halberd) puts the enemy on the ground for the most effective strike, overhead and coming down to focus all the force of the blow into the tip with the victim between the point and a hard place.

I love staff fighting, it's great, and a basic spear is simply a staff with a point. Combat is situational, and if I can carry only one weapon that does not go BANG! and I don't know the situation I'll need it in, it's going to be a sword. But, I wouldn't turn down a spear either, a fine weapon.

That said, sword and spear here are poorly defined, and how one is fighting with them. Spear and shield is far different than a two-handed spear technique, and lengths vary like crazy. And no, if it has a sword or ax attached to the end, I don't consider it a spear. Sword, what do we mean? Rapier, long sword, war sword, gladius, arming sword?

If I was young again and my shoulders weren't a mess, I'd be getting my hands on a halberd to get a feel for it, even if I never managed to get good with it.

That’s partially why I like buhurt so much. Such a big variety of weapons, tactics, and skills used. I like being able to kick and judo throw a guy while using a sword and buckler. I also like being able to punch people, I’m pretty good at that with my Muay Thai and boxing training.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

That’s partially why I like buhurt so much. Such a big variety of weapons, tactics, and skills used. I like being able to kick and judo throw a guy while using a sword and buckler. I also like being able to punch people, I’m pretty good at that with my Muay Thai and boxing training.

I seriously had to look this one up and I was not disappointed. The 12 year-old gamer in me desperately wanted to add 'tt,' because I really am an idiot, and the rest perked up with recognition and delight. Writing fights like this is what makes life worth living.

 

[Malik]

So, hey--I had the opportunity to send my Hanwei Tinker Great Sword of War back to Tinker Pearce himself (it helps that he's family and my long-time sparring partner) for a rebalance and a new grip. I hope to have it back within a couple more weeks. He's going to shave some steel from the blade to make it "float" the way his custom pieces do. I'll likely put up a blog post with the differences and, if you're lucky, some video.

Even as it was, straight from the factory, it's an amazing piece and a dozen times more amazing considering the price point, but it didn't quite dance like the first XIIIa that I ever handled--which was the inspiration behind Jarrod Torrealday's wasrword in Dragon's Trail and The New Magic. It's something otherworldly to pick up a sword that weighs as much as a crowbar and have it handle like a lightsaber.

So, yeah. at the very least, a write-up and What You Need to Know about sword balancing and apparent weight in the hand.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

So, hey--I had the opportunity to send my Hanwei Tinker Great Sword of War back to Tinker Pearce himself (it helps that he's family and my long-time sparring partner) for a rebalance and a new grip. I hope to have it back within a couple more weeks. He's going to shave some steel from the blade to make it "float" the way his custom pieces do. I'll likely put up a blog post with the differences and, if you're lucky, some video.

Even as it was, straight from the factory, it's an amazing piece and a dozen times more amazing considering the price point, but it didn't quite dance like the first XIIIa that I ever handled--which was the inspiration behind Jarrod Torrealday's wasrword in Dragon's Trail and The New Magic. It's something otherworldly to pick up a sword that weighs as much as a crowbar and have it handle like a lightsaber.

So, yeah. at the very least, a write-up and What You Need to Know about sword balancing and apparent weight in the hand.

I'm making shortbread cookies right now. Yeah, I know the time. I'm a weirdo and everyone knows it. I would totally send you guys some cookies to see all of that.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Those prices aren't bad on his website. Next time I expand my toy stock, I must remember to check out his work. I've always wanted an XVIIIB for no particular reason.

 

[Malik]

The Hanwei pieces are Chinese production models of his swords. They can use a little cleaning up, but even with custom post-work, they're much more affordable than a custom piece.

If Stonelands gets greenlit, I'll be getting custom pieces.

And finding one of these, which is my White Whale:

Longship Armoury Odin's Oar, Sword of Runa the Martyr of Stormwater

Love This : Longship Armoury Odin's Oar, Sword of Runa the Martyr of Stormwater

sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I really want this... I should've bought it when I had extra cash laying around, heh heh. The Cluny at Albion Swords, based on a museum piece in Paris where the smith got to compare parts with the original when developing it
.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I've always wanted an XVIIIB for no particular reason.

I always thought "because sword" is a valid and generally accepted reason for wanting to own a sword....

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I like the way you think.

I always thought "because sword" is a valid and generally accepted reason for wanting to own a sword....

 

[A. E. Lowan]

"Because sword," is, indeed, the best and really only reason to own a sword. All else is semantics.

 

[Ban]

"Because sword," is, indeed, the best and really only reason to own a sword. All else is semantics.

False. To become the rightful king of Britain is another good reason to obtain a sword. A specific sword that is.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'll take Excalibur, but I want it with no strings attached.

False. To become the rightful king of Britain is another good reason to obtain a sword. A specific sword that is.