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Atheist... or Worshipper?

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
I have no doubt that science and philosophy could flourish in such a world, but I would suggest there is no reason to believe it would flourish more than a world with religion, such as ours.



Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.

Both valid points. It all depends on the skill of the writer and the reader's willingness to suspend disbelief.
 
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Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.

Well this is all speculative, because we know of no such world! :D

So it could go either way in fiction and still make an interesting world.

I do NOT want to interject any sort of commentary on religion in our own world, or science for that matter, and especially not these two things together in a battle to the death...but broadly stated, Nietzsche thought that intellectual progress in our world, including in science, required 3 or 4 great errors in thought. (One place he says it's 3, another he says it's 4.) The general gist was that being wrong can sometimes help us to advance. I'd like to think of it in metaphorical terms and say that ignorance can sometimes be a great aid to progress–that even despite how wrong we are, the natural tendency is to keep taking steps forward until Lo! and Behold! we actually have progressed into the future. Perhaps we are sometimes better off stumbling forward than a) knowing where we are going and b) always going there.

I'm just curious about this topic, so I decided to see what other writers have decided to put in their own worlds.

Do you have magical immortal beings called gods? Or do you only have one god? Or none at all?

I have a land of almost all atheists. Why? I don't know, I need to put in a backstory for that. Only a few power hungry false prophets preaching nonsense are my religions, if they can even be called that. There are no gods. I didn't want to get into the big mess of religion, building history, laws and etc. And I think it's adds a little difference and spice, no gods, only people controlling their own or others fate, not a god doing it.

Thanks,
Salty

I think it's not necessary to go all-out creating a complex religion with complex laws resulting from it and a complex history supporting it.

Plus, not all religions are organized religions.

You can sometimes just imagine how the people feel about your world and create simple beliefs that express their thoughts about the world. Things like (to borrow from our world) "Fortune favors the bold!" express a belief. What if most people in a culture thought that way? Would this be a "religion," of a sort? At least, a system of belief?

I think that having a rich cultural tapestry is possible without worrying about who/what gets worshipped and why.
 

Malik

Auror
The people in my world don't have an organized religion, at least not one that plays a role in politics. However, they do acknowledge that there are higher powers at play. The general gist of things is that the gods are busy running everything and have no time to take second jobs as short-order cooks. Prayer is viewed as a waste of time. Giving thanks is encouraged, but asking favors is gauche.

People generally pray to the deceased -- family members, loved ones, fallen comrades -- with the idea that these souls are now watching over them. (They also don't have a hell the way we know it; they see the afterlife as a big family reunion and nothing to be afraid of -- it's the painful and messy act of dying that keeps them rightfully cautious.) They're a deeply practical people and they know that it does no good to pray to a god who doesn't always listen. Plus, if the gods are busy making things happen, it's bad form and likely unwise to inconvenience them for personal affairs. For them, asking a god to directly intervene on your behalf would be the equivalent of someone here conjuring a demon to make something happen in their personal life. I would think the last thing you'd want in that scenario would be success . . .
 
I wouldn't write a fantasy with atheistic societies, I'd save it for science fiction. To believe in a god or gods sounds much more reasonable in world where fantastical and magical things happen. I may include some atheistic themes though, and I don't like the idea of making gods literal beings that people know exist.

But depending on the future I want to portray, I would include a mostly-atheist world in a sci-fi.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Creating unknown worlds is certainly my goal when I write. :D

Yes. The great thing about this from a writer's perspective is that none of it is really falsifiable. We have our own world, n=1. You can expand that out looking at various cultures, but we're still dealing with the same modern humans, wired in the same way. The author has almost limitless bounds, so long as they can construct a coherent framework to make everything hang together.
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
Yes. The great thing about this from a writer's perspective is that none of it is really falsifiable. We have our own world, n=1. You can expand that out looking at various cultures, but we're still dealing with the same modern humans, wired in the same way. The author has almost limitless bounds, so long as they can construct a coherent framework to make everything hang together.

Most assuredly. I've yet to make a world like that. Building that framework would be challenging but a lot of fun.
All of my writings thus far have worlds with either polytheism, monotheism or a combination of the two.
 

Russ

Istar
Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.

Quite true (although in modern pop culture these are portrayed as more frequent and serious than history actually teaches).

However in the non-religious world there would also be many obstacles to scientific progress. Much opposition to scientific progress has come from other interests than religious, such as economic interests, or even other scientific interests. Many of Darwin's most vocal, and effective opponents were other scientists. The same can be found at many other moments in scientific history.

For one example, it was the work of Lord Kelvin, in physics that almost torpedoed Darwinism before it got rolling:

http://rhig.physics.wayne.edu/~sean/Sean/Course_information_files/kelvinsunF.pdf
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
Valid argument but let's try to keep real-world examples to a minimum. When I write, I'm often guided by Occam's Razor.
 
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or even other scientific interests. Many of Darwin's most vocal, and effective opponents were other scientists. The same can be found at many other moments in scientific history.

Yeah, you could create the Gryffindor School of Physics, the Slytherin School of Chemistry, the Ravenclaw School of Genetics, and the Hufflepuff School of Biology and have them go to war.

Might have to change the names.

Edit: Actually, that would be pretty cool. A fantasy that features warring factions of scientific disciplines, no magic, but maybe some oddball scientific fields...
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
These are all possibilities that are good to be aware of, but when you're creating your fantasy world there is nothing that says there is only one way a society can evolve. Even with a religious society, you don't have to show them in conflict with science. It's just one possible way to go about it, reflective of our own history.
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
These are all possibilities that are good to be aware of, but when you're creating your fantasy world there is nothing that says there is only one way a society can evolve. Even with a religious society, you don't have to show them in conflict with science. It's just one possible way to go about it, reflective of our own history.

So true. Rules limit creativity. My fantasy worlds are about escapism. If I want fantasy that mirrors this world, I can turn on the TV.
 

Russ

Istar
So true. Rules limit creativity. My fantasy worlds are about escapism. If I want fantasy that mirrors this world, I can turn on the TV.

Sure I don't disagree about the value of fantasy. But is not the real joy or art of thought experiments or world building achieved by changing some variable in a world to make it different than ours and then rationally discovering what those changes might mean?

Or is it all just for the "ohs" and "ahs"?

One of the great exemplars of the first approach would be Dune oddly enough.
 

Reaver

Staff
Moderator
Sure I don't disagree about the value of fantasy. But is not the real joy or art of thought experiments or world building achieved by changing some variable in a world to make it different than ours and then rationally discovering what those changes might mean?

Or is it all just for the "ohs" and "ahs"?

One of the great exemplars of the first approach would be Dune oddly enough.

There is no right or wrong approach. I'm stating my opinion, not facts. We all have our opinions about what makes good fantasy and that's the great thing about it.

It's all up to the individual writer. I choose not to limit myself too much. Nice jab citing Dune. I read Dune once. Kind of a bore. I respect Frank Herbert for how extensive the world he created is. He's the Tolkien of science fiction.

I like the quote that's in my signature because I'm a huge fan of the 1984 film.
 
Hi,

For me in fantasy (epic at least) any society that had no gods / no religion would not ring true. Every society that has ever existed on Earth that we have knowledge of, has some form of faith. It's part of the human condition. That doesn't mean that all members of those societies believe in that particular faith or even that some don't reject it. It just means that the society being conceived of would be vastly different to anything we know of.

To add to that as Russ has said, a society that never develops a religion of some sort, probably lacks something in their very nature. Curiosity. But let's put this into perspective. Where does religion come from? Science too? Probably philosophy? All of it begins in questions. Who are we? Where did we come from? What happens when we die? Is this all we are? A society that has never developed any sort of faith surely hasn't asked these questions - and what sort of people don't ask these questions? Who doesn't wonder about life, the universe and everything? And so I would be sitting there reading that book and wondering - who are these people? What's wrong with them? And if they don't ask these questions, what other questions don't they ask?

As for technological progress, actually while there have been things like the dark ages and periods where science and religion have clashed, overall, religion has been the genesis of scientific enquiry. Its supporter and main driver. Without it the world would be a very much more backwards place.

Cheers, Greg.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Hi,

For me in fantasy (epic at least) any society that had no gods / no religion would not ring true. Every society that has ever existed on Earth that we have knowledge of, has some form of faith. It's part of the human condition.

But of course your story doesn't have to be set on Earth (though it can be), doesn't have to involve humans - and if it does, not humans who are identical to us (though it may). The idea of throwing a necessary limitation on a fantasy world based on some aspect of the real world doesn't make much sense to me. But them in if you want, but don't be compelled to. Just be internally consistent.
 
The idea of throwing a necessary limitation on a fantasy world based on some aspect of the real world doesn't make much sense to me.

It makes sense to me in a vague way. I mean I could choose to write a novel in an entirely fictional language but I'm not sure it would get much traction. General point: A significant factor in enjoyment is recognition. We love the odd and the familiar.

But that says nothing about which factors should be familiar.

Sometimes in these discussions we start out with a question seeking a personal opinion, revolving around individual taste and what we do in our very particular individual projects, and we end up debating what are and what are not the rules.

So to avoid that, I accept that your observation relates to your sense of the matter, whole-heartedly! :D
 

Peat

Sage
In a way, fantasy is a genre I can see as having a country of atheists easier than any other. Sufficiently advanced magic may well answer all their questions about reality. Or maybe give them such big egos that they think there's no gods other than themselves.

Personally I love playing with religion and myth so its never occurred to me to do so.
 

TheKillerBs

Maester
Two things. The first is that a species with zero curiosity would have a mindset that would be truly alien to a human's. Would a character of such a species even be relatable?

The second is that much has been made of theistic religion, but atheistic religions are still an option and, at least in Western fantasy, underrepresented. Although my setting tends more toward theistic religion, so I guess I'm just being somewhat hypocritical lol.
 

Oomatu

Closed Account
In my novel "Islandfall", there are gods... per se. They are called Beings, and each stands for an individual virtue pivotal to the culture of the Islanders (patience, valor, humility, etc.) A good portion of the book toys with the idea of freewill, destiny, and decision... how much power do the Beings have over fate. In face, a good portion of the story is not about whether the Beings exist, but how much control they actually have. Different races in the book hold different Beings in higher stature, and focus on cultivating the value he/she teaches. There are some to worship none, or all of the Beings... but there is no real argument whether they exist.

Thought the reality of the Beings is much different than the Islanders perceive, their influence on their cultures in undeniable.

Ultimately, there is a singular god-figure in the book who's motives are undeterminable. She/he/it is the source of all creation, Beings and mortals alike. Destiny is just a way of prophesying one outcome, an outcome that can be swayed with free-will.
 
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