Atheist... or Worshipper?

[FifthView]

For ambiguity's sake, perhaps?

I think it's because, when I think of stories I want to write, my focus is on the people in those stories, the human condition, and having gods walking about among them interacting with the story would remove that focus. But yes, also enabling doubt and skepticism and that eleventh hour desperation for human characters, and for the reader, is more interesting for me.

I have read stories which included such interactive gods and enjoyed them. But I have a natural aversion to putting them in my own stories. This isn't really a decision I make consciously, however, but more like a default starting position.

The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.

Yeah, having tangible gods raises so many world building and plot questions.

I do have one WIP in which the empire's founding principle is that a goddess long ago gifted this land to the people and set up the empire's structural elements (form of government, centers of authority, etc.) The empire is a "soft theocracy" in that there's the assumption that the emperor has a divine right to rule and the entire empire has only the one religion. But it's a deist form of belief: The goddess set things up and then departed. The magic in this world is considered another gift from the goddess, but kind of a "standing endowment" sort of thing; she is not making decisions in any direct way to give this person or that person magical ability.

Even this interaction-at-a-distance raises some important questions about the nature of reality: The mere fact that some people acquire magical ability thanks to that goddess's ambient influence means that her influence still exhibits itself within the world, and so who can be skeptical of her existence? This is the effect of having an observable "proof" of a deity's existence.

 

[Steerpike]

If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.

 

[SaltyDog]

If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.

Which would make sense with a powerful being like a god.

 

[Steerpike]

Which would make sense with a powerful being like a god.

Especially when they have their hands full dealing with other gods.

 

[Reaver]

The last three posts have just described the entire premise of the God of War games.

 

[FifthView]

Also re: a people who reject meaning and truth, I wonder whether identifiable and compelling motives and goals (for character and reader) require some system of belief or at least belief in a higher meaning.

Revenge? A character out for revenge believes it's a meaningful response to a detested event.

Rescue? A character who seeks to rescue a loved one finds his relationship to that other to be meaningful. Their nearness (so that the loved one is no longer at a distance in the hands of captors) is meaningful to the rescuer. If he's rescuing a stranger, like a kidnapped heir, then the institution of government is meaningful to him.

And so forth. Trying to right the ship, establish or reestablish a type of order—or even, chaos—seems to require an acceptance of meaning.

I suppose that an instinctual operation, like a spreading mold or virus, wouldn't require such a thing; but then we are a little back to that "describing trees" sort of thing. It could be fascinating to watch such a developing condition, operation. But I doubt it'd be possible to write from that POV without inserting a belief in meaning/truth.

 

[skip.knox]

It is clear, to me at least, from this thread that one cannot even begin to address the OP without a definition of what atheism means and what religion means. Actually, the OP subject line says "worshipper" which is not exactly the same as religion.

In any case, this is an area where an author ought not even tackle the subject unless it is going to be the point of the book. There is simply too much room for the reader to bring his own understandings to the story, too much possibility for misunderstanding and consequent disengagement. Again, unless a discussion of the nature of atheism and its social implications is going to be the point of the book.

 

[FifthView]

If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.

There's always the anthropomorphizing of these kinds of gods. They're hardly distinguishable from groups of extremely powerful human characters. The Illuminati, in Avengers movies The World Security Council, any hidden cabal of very powerful wizards would do.

It's an interesting approach, to slap the name of "gods" on these characters, because as with Asgardian or Greek gods we can simultaneously contemplate some of the great forces in nature (non-human and human natures!) I've enjoyed plenty of stories that had that sort of god, but introducing it into my own writing....I don't know. It takes a little focus away from my primary interest. This isn't to say that the existence of interactive gods doesn't introduce the potential of exploring the human condition via their existence, however. Maybe I'll need to consider that potential more.

 

[Reaver]

It is clear, to me at least, from this thread that one cannot even begin to address the OP without a definition of what atheism means and what religion means. Actually, the OP subject line says "worshipper" which is not exactly the same as religion.

In any case, this is an area where an author ought not even tackle the subject unless it is going to be the point of the book. There is simply too much room for the reader to bring his own understandings to the story, too much possibility for misunderstanding and consequent disengagement. Again, unless a discussion of the nature of atheism and its social implications is going to be the point of the book.

Excellent point. If I choose to have any sort of theism in my writing, it's in very generalized and vague form. For example, a character might say something like "Thank (insert deity)!" or I may include a cult that worships a deity associated with evil or darkness or whatever.

That's about as far as I delve into that. It is indeed far too complicated to explore any ramifications of religion's impact in my fantasy worlds. Also, I don't ever want to come across as one of those preachy writers.

 

[FifthView]

Ugh I just realized I've been running the DC vs Marvel recurring schism dichotomy schism through my head.

 

[X Equestris]

I don't have deities walking around, or the confirmed existence of deities, in anything I've written so far. My primary created world has plenty of potential evidence for the various religions, or no religion. I feel like bringing in the same uncertainty from real life provides better dramatic opportunities. That said, religion is a big part of my world and many of the stories set in it.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, having tangible gods raises so many world building and plot questions.

I do have one WIP in which the empire's founding principle is that a goddess long ago gifted this land to the people and set up the empire's structural elements (form of government, centers of authority, etc.) The empire is a "soft theocracy" in that there's the assumption that the emperor has a divine right to rule and the entire empire has only the one religion. But it's a deist form of belief: The goddess set things up and then departed. The magic in this world is considered another gift from the goddess, but kind of a "standing endowment" sort of thing; she is not making decisions in any direct way to give this person or that person magical ability.

Even this interaction-at-a-distance raises some important questions about the nature of reality: The mere fact that some people acquire magical ability thanks to that goddess's ambient influence means that her influence still exhibits itself within the world, and so who can be skeptical of her existence? This is the effect of having an observable "proof" of a deity's existence.

I think skepticism is still possible even with deities as real as the kitchen table. Its not a rational reaction but I'm sure everyone here can think of multiple occasions where they've seen people come out with some very irrational reactions to absolutely true things. Which of course tends to lead to ramifications.

One model I'm pursuing is one where every craft guild is in fact a cult to the relevant deity. If the god is real and his influence possible, why wouldn't you all be keeping them on side? Religious teachings teach good craftsmanship; displaying good craftsmanship is needed to advance as a religious. The idea is that their faith is utterly intertwined in their real life.

Of course, arguably, if you know they're real, then is it really faith? The answer I would suggest that just because they're real, doesn't mean that faith isn't required for the idea they'll come through for you.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I have yet to have deities walk around. But demons sure do. The only religion I have really built is a meritocracy religion. The better you are the higher you rise. But part of it is giving away part of what you make to help others. This means the better soldier the better your standing. This also includes thieves of a certain group. The better the thief the better you are.

 

[Jackarandajam]

"all the gods in their empty halls" is a common expression in my book.

religion isn't a very discussed topic, but the possibility of a god, that is somehow related to the very mysterious and singlular form of magic, becomes a topic eventually. I don't think there is going to be a conclusion, but I'm not sure yet.

Things happen for a reason, Magic seems to have a mind of its own, the old gods are dead, maybe there's something, or someone, in control.

It's hard to have religion in your book and not have it a play a central role, it seems, and I have other goals to acheive. Afraid of muddying the waters.

 

[Chessie]

I stay away from religion in my books even though I'm a person of faith. The closest I get to it in my WIP is my main character invoking the name of the Almighty before entering the realm of Morana (goddess of death in Slavic folklore). Not because I'm afraid of offending anyone, but because religion in literature is a complicated thing for me. I want the focus on the characters and the plot, not religion, not the world or setting. It's a personal choice and if writing with religion in mind works for your story, then by all means go forward with it.

 

[valiant12]

There are god like creatures in my stories, some of them even have prominant role in the plot. Are they real gods? I don't know.
That’s for the reader to decide.

 

[Thomas Laszlo]

This is a good question to bring up. I think authors often avoid tackling religion because it's such a sensitive subject in the real world, and inventing religions can get complicated. The scenario you're describing (where everyone is atheist) is pretty common.

My world is mainly dominated by a totalitarian theocracy, so religion is quite a large part of it, though the religion was invented to control the masses.

Outside of that, there's many various viewpoints on God or a god. there is this figure that is supposed to be the source of magic, usually depicted as feminine, but ideas on what she is like vary tremendously. Some believe in the vague idea of a creator God, others have stricter ideas of what said God is like, but there aren't any 'God-inspired' religious texts of any sort, or official doctrines. Most people suppose the world would need to have been created, but it doesn't go beyond that for many. There are also some outspoken atheists. On the other hand, there are some extremely strict cults and such, though not necessarily religious (mainly just a cult believing magic is evil).

Personally I'm intrigued by all the different ideas and beliefs that exist in the world and like to explore different religions and philosophies. I would like to carry some of that over into my stories. A story where characters actually ponder and debate religion would be refreshing and different.

I know this is old but I find this interesting! Maybe part of a whole story is about a MC who is a philosopher? Or theologian I guess is more correct? Tension could be added by the religious and philosophical debates surrounding everything. I'd like to explore that soon...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NaNoWriMo WIP!

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

I'm just curious about this topic, so I decided to see what other writers have decided to put in their own worlds.

Do you have magical immortal beings called gods? Or do you only have one god? Or none at all?

I have a land of almost all atheists. Why? I don't know, I need to put in a backstory for that. Only a few power hungry false prophets preaching nonsense are my religions, if they can even be called that. There are no gods. I didn't want to get into the big mess of religion, building history, laws and etc. And I think it's adds a little difference and spice, no gods, only people controlling their own or others fate, not a god doing it.

Thanks,
Salty

I'm coming late to this topic, but I also find it of great interest.

In my WIP, I have a pantheon of deities who exist because mortals believe they do. The more mortals who believe in a deity and the stronger that belief, the more powerful the deity becomes. Worship of a deity gives more power to the deity than mere belief. It is possible for a deity to exist due to the beliefs of many but the worship of none.

The deities of this world can and do walk amongst the mortals, but they take care not to do anything that might cause worshipers to stop worshiping. Each deity symbolizes some aspect of reality, and mortals who revere that aspect of reality are likely worshipers of the associated deity. But even those who do not worship may still believe, because they respect or at least accept the associated aspect of reality and perhaps even have some degree of faith in it, without revering or worshiping it. The powers a deity exhibits are either common to all deities (e.g., walking between the different planes of existence) or are related to the aspect of reality that they symbolize.

Each deity possesses an item that represents their symbolism, and retaining possession of this item is important to retaining the beliefs of mortals. If they lose their symbol of power, their status automatically takes a hit, because the mortals believe it should.

Any event that can strongly sway the beliefs of mortals about a deity, regardless of which deity/deities the mortals worship (if any), can have a drastic impact on that deity's status. This is a major impetus for the novel.

It's not so much the deities who control the fates of the mortals, but the mortals who control the fates of the deities. There is a goddess called Lady Fate, but there is no guarantee that her prophecies will come true. If they don't come true, or if some deity has to intervene to make them come true, she'll lose believers/worshipers or their belief/faith will weaken, which means she'll lose status, so it's to her benefit to only make pronouncements she's certain will come to pass without divine intervention. She's not above making pronouncements that result in swaying beliefs/expectations, but, again, she has to take care not to alienate believers/worshipers. Lady Fate has only a few worshipers in the world, but nearly every mortal inhabitant believes in her, and she wants to keep it that way, which will play a major role throughout the series.

While the deities are all vying for power, some more than others, they all understand that the destruction of any of their number could undermine the beliefs of mortals in the divinity of deities as a group. So their battles are not physically carried out between themselves. Their battlefields are the minds of mortals. The deities communicate directly with a few chosen mortals, and rely on their chosen to take the actions necessary to sway or maintain the beliefs of other mortals.

It's possible in this world for any mortal to ascend to godhood. All it takes is for a significant portion of the world's population to believe you're a deity, and presto, you are. It's not likely to happen overnight. The beliefs must be deep-rooted. Mere pronouncement of a belief does not suffice. Note also that worship is not necessary, only belief. There also does not have to be an existing entity who morphs into a deity. When belief is strong enough, if no one already exists who is widely recognized as embodying that belief, a deity may spring into being to embody it. That is, mortals may create deities. None of the religions of the world preach that their deities created the world or any of its inhabitants. They understand that either deities or mortals must have existed one before the other, and since it is recognized that mortals can create deities, it stands to reason that mortals existed first. Reincarnation is also recognized as a truth of this world, which makes it easy to believe that mortals have always existed. Because of reincarnation, mortals aren't really that mortal after all. Their spirits are immortal; it's only their bodies that die.

 

[Alyssa]

My current project contains a pantheon of deities who would frequently and quite ostentatiously interfere until about a century before the story begins. From there, however, they disappear for reasons that I won't elaborate too far into. My assumption is that in a world that has undergone a magically powered industrial revolution cum enlightenment, coupled with the absence of the gods where they had once very obviously existed it would be much harder to maintain belief compared to systems of belief that always operated on belief/faith rather than divine revelation (i.e. people believed in the gods because they could imagine them vs. people believed in the gods because they could see them).
As far as the atheist vs worshipper question goes, I would say the world is mostly practicing atheist who recognize that gods might have once existed.