Atheist... or Worshipper?

[Miskatonic]

Polytheism is the main type of religious practice in my story and atheism doesn't really exist, in the same way it wouldn't exist to those in the classical tales of Greek mythology, since the proof of the gods being real is pretty evident.

The biggest contrast in the human world is the notion of whether the gods are pro mankind or against mankind. Some religious orders believe the gods (or at least certain gods) care about the welfare of mankind and are their protectors, while others believe that they have sort of an original sin type element and thus people exist as a means to live a life trying to find redemption in the eyes of the gods. So glass half full vs glass half empty.

 

[Gurkhal]

I prefer my worlds to be religious but I mostly try to base them fairly strict on historical socities when I can.

 

[Creed]

I'm in favour of more godless religions in fantasy, or "atheistic religions." I find them so fascinating, and it can be hard to get into pantheons or the monotheistic model. My favourite fantasy religion is without a doubt that of the Qun. Check it out!

One ancient race in my universe possesses the biological drive to destroy, and as such only worships a principle they call Terminus. It's shaped their entire culture, and in many many ways has drove them near extinction, a state which they find tragic, but also one that fills them with ecstasy.

Another major atheistic religion in this universe combines ancestor worship and astrology. They worship Sea and Sky and honour their ancestors, who have the only active role in the religion and can change the course of fates. Some Yoruba/Taoist/Buddhist influences there.

There's also Night Worship and Katoan Dust Worship on a different world. Spirits are part of the mix, too.

 

[Chessie]

But why would they be atheist? Isn't it human nature to question everything in the universe? I don't see hard science being present in fantasy unless it's Steampunk or Sci Fi and then that would make sense. Just my thoughts tho'.

 

[Miskatonic]

But why would they be atheist? Isn't it human nature to question everything in the universe? I don't see hard science being present in fantasy unless it's Steampunk or Sci Fi and then that would make sense. Just my thoughts tho'.

You're making the assumption that questioning existence will always lead to the concept of a higher power in the form of a god or something along those lines. When it comes to fantasy worlds and fantasy creatures who's to say what conclusions they might arrive at?

 

[Chessie]

Well, I completely disagree because history...

Let's look back all the way to ancient civilizations who had some sort of religious/faith system in place. Sure, there have been always been atheists but I can't think of one atheist society in history. Fantasy worlds are different so yes, I'll give you that. But if we're basing cultures from real world ones then it makes no sense to me. But to each their own.

 

[Reaver]

Well, I completely disagree because history...

Let's look back all the way to ancient civilizations who had some sort of religious/faith system in place. Sure, there have been always been atheists but I can't think of one atheist society in history. Fantasy worlds are different so yes, I'll give you that. But if we're basing cultures from real world ones then it makes no sense to me. But to each their own.

There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity.

It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.

 

[SaltyDog]

There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity.

It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.

So they don't see him as a god, more of a person who achieved what they are working at, or towards?

 

[Chessie]

There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity.

It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.

Yes, you're right in that Buddhists are technically atheist but they are still considered religious.

 

[Reaver]

So they don't see him as a god, more of a person who achieved what they are working at, or towards?

That's absolutely right. To them, Buddha was a man, a great teacher and someone who lived by a certain set of principles that they revere and strive for in their lives.

Yes, you're right in that Buddhists are technically atheist but they are still considered religious.

Agreed. I was only replying to the statement about atheistic societies.

 

[Chessie]

But they *do* in a sense worship Budda. Why else would they have statues in his honor? Myanmar has an enormous one made entirely out of gold and the people there take yearly pilgrimages to leave him flowers and food and money, pray to him etc.

 

[FifthView]

I don't know if we make too much of this god/divinity thing. Having faith in something, whether it's a divine being or simply Nature/Gaia or fate or the laws of science...what's the essential difference? I do think there are differences, but I'm not sure those differences manifest in extremely different ways with respect to human behavior and attitudes.

People have pet theories, and adhere to those theories as if they are polestars, guides they use for orientation in this messy affair called reality.

The same sort of fuzziness attaches to the concept of worship, for me. Is it possible to "worship" another human being, a human institution, currency, a principle, nature? Again, perhaps one might find differences between worship of a deity and worship of something more earthly, but the manifestation on the whole (a range of activities) may not be significantly different. People have died for their god and for a principle or a political movement. People have dedicated their lives to spreading the word of a god or a political doctrine.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's faith. Much of this is still fuzzy for me. I bring these thoughts up because, while I can easily imagine a society that doesn't worship any deity, I have an extremely difficult time imagining a society of beings that has no form of faith or worship (using these terms in the looser sense already outlined above.)

*Edit: Just want to note that I'm not calling religious faith a "pet theory." I'm using that term in a kinder, gentler way. I have my own pet theories, as anyone who has read many of my comments here might suspect, and I know that I am guided by these—at least for a time. I think it's an attribute of humans (and I can only use anecdotal evidence, personal observation) to have a theory of reality and to orient one's life and activities accordingly.

 

[Reaver]

But they *do* in a sense worship Budda. Why else would they have statues in his honor? Myanmar has an enormous one made entirely out of gold and the people there take yearly pilgrimages to leave him flowers and food and money, pray to him etc.

Only in the sense that they revere him. They don't pray to Buddha thinking that their prayers will be heard and answered. That would imply that they think of him as a deity. When praying, they usually chant or recite Buddhists sayings and teachings.

Buddhists know that only they are capable of effecting positive change in their lives.

But again, I've gotten off topic and kindly ask that all further discussion go back to religions/ deities in fantasy fiction.

If this thread has run its course and we simply can't get back on track, I'm happy to lock it down.

 

[FifthView]

But again, I've gotten off topic and kindly ask that all further discussion go back to religions/ deities in fantasy fiction.

If this thread has run its course and we simply can't get back on track, I'm happy to lock it down.

I hope my last comment doesn't fall too far off track if it falls off.

I think maybe the problem with discussing this topic in general is that the natural trend is to bring in real-world religions to the discussion and we may have understandings or beliefs about real religions that diverge, leading us down a path focusing on them and not on deities and religions for fantasy worlds.

If my last comment went astray, I'll try to bring it back. In afterthought, I seem to have been merely reiterating something I wrote in response to the OP earlier:

You can sometimes just imagine how the people feel about your world and create simple beliefs that express their thoughts about the world. Things like (to borrow from our world) "Fortune favors the bold!" express a belief. What if most people in a culture thought that way? Would this be a "religion," of a sort? At least, a system of belief?

I think that having a rich cultural tapestry is possible without worrying about who/what gets worshipped and why.

Another recent thread raised the topic (for me) of how some of my favorite fantasy worlds might have a somewhat common medieval European base but still seem like very different worlds. How do they diverge from the initial model? What features give them a unique identity for me? This current thread on deities/religions has clarified something for me. I love how the societies in these different worlds revere different things, abhor different things, and in general have a kind of cultural identity relating to systems of belief (whether religious or secular.) So the kinds of deities, religions, and value systems can play a large role in my enjoyment–and having variety keeps me supplied with new worlds to enjoy.

As for my own writing, I do tend to use organized religions of one sort or another, but I dip into the theistic and atheistic varieties about equally. I don't, however, have literal gods and goddesses running around in the world, interacting with humans. My theistic religions keep them at a distance. And I don't know why this is.

 

[TheKillerBs]

As for my own writing, I do tend to use organized religions of one sort or another, but I dip into the theistic and atheistic varieties about equally. I don't, however, have literal gods and goddesses running around in the world, interacting with humans. My theistic religions keep them at a distance. And I don't know why this is.

For ambiguity's sake, perhaps?

 

[Peat]

The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth.

A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.

 

[Reaver]

I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth.

A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.

You're making quite an assumption using the word "us" when talking about not being able to relate to something alien or not like humans. Maybe a certain percentage would have difficulties but I think that at the very least a similar percentage wouldn't have any problems at all.

Also, nihilists reject all meaning and to them, truth is subjective. There are a lot more of them in the world than you may think.

As I said before, it all comes down to the skill of the writer and the willingness of the reader to suspend disbelief.

 

[FifthView]

I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth.

A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.

I tend to agree. But for me the most pressing question about trying the experiment would be whether writing such a people would be possible. How do you do that? This reminds me of the old argument against the purist skeptics: "You say that we can't know anything; but how do you know that?" How do you reject something like meaning and yet mean to say what you say? Perhaps drawing such a people from the outside would be possible, like having a POV character who is not in that group or an omniscient narrator describing that people at a distance. But would your POV character be able to converse with a character who rejects all meaning? Would your omniscient narrator be able to relate a conversation such a person would have with another? It'd be a little like describing trees, maybe. (And not the walking, talking kind lol.)

 

[Steerpike]

The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.

I suppose it depends, in part, on what the gods are like. Do they demand worship? Or even though they're real and around, do they have their own problems to worry about and care a little less about what mortals are up to?