Communication and Languages in Fantasy

[Finchbearer]

I do find Latin interesting, and scientific naming is mainly done in Latin. I like looking up botanical names that I find interesting and it’ll translate as ‘prickly bush’ or something that’ll sound a lot less romantic. And I understand its wide usage comes from that putting Christianity and classicism in academia on a mighty big pedestal - I just wish things like Norse, and the other Germanic routes of our language would be studied more. There are many many old Norse derivatives in our language, and maybe that is more localised to the UK, words like ‘penny’ and ‘halfpenny’ are gifts from the north - it’d be interesting if that was implemented more in the curriculum instead of it just being lumped in with history lessons.

 

[Ned Marcus]

I use a common language for travel in my stories, but some people are telepathic. I used italics for all telepathic speech, which isn't really that much.

You could try having some relationship between the languages so you have a couple of shared words. Using body language can convey a lot in some circumstances, too.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I do find Latin interesting, and scientific naming is mainly done in Latin. I like looking up botanical names that I find interesting and it’ll translate as ‘prickly bush’ or something that’ll sound a lot less romantic. And I understand its wide usage comes from that putting Christianity and classicism in academia on a mighty big pedestal - I just wish things like Norse, and the other Germanic routes of our language would be studied more. There are many many old Norse derivatives in our language, and maybe that is more localised to the UK, words like ‘penny’ and ‘halfpenny’ are gifts from the north - it’d be interesting if that was implemented more in the curriculum instead of it just being lumped in with history lessons.

I wouldn't consider penny and halfpenny derivatives of Old Norse, considering the German Pfennig and the Dutch penning

 

[Finchbearer]

Old Norse - penningr - penny. Denominations - hálfpenningr - halfpenny - fjórðingr - fourpenny.

 

[Ban]

Old Norse - penningr - penny. Denominations - hálfpenningr - halfpenny - fjórðingr - fourpenny.

I think KillerBs is right on this one. My googling tells me penning originated from West Germanic, not Norse. This is corroborated by the fact that the word was already used in the Carolingian Empire as "pfennigs."

Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands

 

[Finchbearer]

If it’s a question of how we came to use in in the English language, I think it was a mixing of the two cultures here in Britain. Where I specifically live near York, the Vikings had a larger overall influence. I believe Viking trade was much large than that of Anglo-Saxon, and the trade of silver penningr specifically.

 

[Ban]

If it’s a question of how we came to use in in the English language, I think it was a mixing of the two cultures here in Britain. Where I specifically live near York, the Vikings had a larger overall influence.

That's alright in general, but I don't think it applies here. The word was West Germanic in origin, and from what I can find likely imported into English by the Angles and Saxons. It seems that the Norse learned the word through trade with western Europe, not the other way around.

Wiki lists the modern Danish word as follows: "From Old Danish pænning, Old Norse peningr, borrowed from Old Saxon penning or Old English penning, peniġ, from Proto-Germanic *panningaz (“coin”). Cognate with English penny and German Pfennig."

 

[Finchbearer]

We have a more diluted history - the word penny derives from Germanic as you say, but the origins of its use in modern English I think was more influenced by the prolific trade of silver in Viking culture, with the widespread use of the penningr, which was what I originally talked about.

 

[Ban]

That seems unlikely, if the Angles and the Saxons already used variations of the penning, as well as the Franks and the Frisians with whom the Angles and Saxons plied trade long before the Danelaw emerged. It doesn't seem to me that this particular word exemplifies your point.

{Removed my York example. It seems that is not of Norse origin either}

 

[Finchbearer]

It’s not just likely it’s a fact - I mentioned the denominations before, we got our usage of the terms penny, halfpenny and farthing directly from Viking silver penningr. There was definitely a mixing and melding of cultures, but many mints that have been found were Viking made, and considering their prolific trade, I’d say they had more influence, even if the origins of the actual word came from the Anglo-Saxons.

 

[Ban]

Sure if we move beyond the penny, it's fine to give credit to the norse on the halfpenny and farthing.

We went a different path on the continent. Here in the Netherlands we use the word penning as a synonym for munt (coin), but also as a synonym for medallion. There are a ton of words derived from it, like erepenning (honour medallion) and penningmeester (head of finance).

 

[Finchbearer]

I think I read that it’s thought that the origins of the world used by Vikings was along the lines of ‘pan’ as in the mint used to make the coins, or ‘pawn’ as in pawning items in trade.

I didn’t know you mentioned York. It’s called York because the Vikings renamed the city Jorvik, which was originally called Eboracum, and founded by the Romans.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I think I read that it’s thought that the origins of the world used by Vikings was along the lines of ‘pan’ as in the mint used to make the coins, or ‘pawn’ as in pawning items in trade.

I didn’t know you mentioned York. It’s called York because the Vikings renamed the city Jorvik, which was originally called Eboracum, and founded by the Romans.

Yeah, the word York is definitely of Viking origin

 

[Ban]

Yeah, the word York is definitely of Viking origin

I find that arbitrary. Jórvík was one Norse name in a long lineage of iterative toponyms. To say it is of Norse origin (vikings weren't a people, but an occupation) is to ignore the Old English, Latin and Brythonic place names preceding it.

 

[Finchbearer]

The romans recorded the name the Celtic Brigantes tribe who inhabited the area now know as York. The romans were the ones who built it into a fortress city though and called it Eboracum - the Viking raiders who came and pillaged it and occupied it thereafter the Anglo-Saxons renamed it Jorvik.

 

[Ban]

I know, and Jórvík is thus a bastardisation of Eboracum, so to deem the town name to be of Norse origin would be arbitrary. We're talking in circles here.

 

[TheKillerBs]

I find that arbitrary. Jórvík was one Norse name in a long lineage of iterative toponyms. To say it is of Norse origin (vikings weren't a people, but an occupation) is to ignore the Old English, Latin and Brythonic place names preceding it.

IDK, Jorvik seems different enough from the Old English (Eoferwic, which is almost certainly linked to Eboracum, which is definitely linked to Celtic Eburakon) that I'd say it's Norse origin.

 

[Finchbearer]

Whatever the etymology and origins of the word itself, it was definitely a bunch of Viking raiders who occupied the city and renamed it Jorvik.

 

[Ban]

IDK, Jorvik seems different enough from the Old English (Eoferwic, which is almost certainly linked to Eboracum, which is definitely linked to Celtic Eburakon) that I'd say it's Norse origin.

Where I live we have names that have changed just as much, but they are in the end still of Latin (or Old West Germanic depending on their time of founding) origin. One city is called Heële in Limburgish. The original Latin name it sprung from? Coriovallum. Migrations and foreign rule combined with time can change toponyms extensively, but the lineage remains.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think you have your principles and I respect that - you like looking at the first incarnations of something. Maybe it’s my Britishness or maybe I am just looking at the fact that it would simply not be called York today if it were not for a bunch of tenacious seafaring northerners.