"Diversity": You can have it.

[Legendary Sidekick]

Just a fair warning - let's not have this degenerate into an exchange of attacks. I'm not saying it has. I'm saying some posts may be perceived that way.

I like this discussion and I think it's good for writers to have it. My suggestion on how to keep it civil: assume the other person's message was stated with good intentions, even if it didn't come out that way.

[ON TOPIC SEGWAY]

I think that's where diversity becomes scary: you try to write a diverse character, just as flawed as a character whose skin is the same as yours, and a reader assumes you're writing a token or caricature or "doing it wrong." ("It" being diversity.)

 

[Nimue]

Holy shit, Jabrosky... I'm not sure how to respond to the comparison between me and some suicide-mongering hateful harpies that exist somewhere in the great unknown but that you're really fond of dragging into forum conversations... But I don't appreciate being called snide or venemous when I was literally restating one of MS's opinions. I'm not attacking you. I've had you blocked since before you were banned.

Wow. I do not have the energy for this. I'm going to go do some writing.

 

[Russ]

Going off what I've gleamed from everything Mythopoet has posted here on MS, I don't think she has any problem whatsoever with other writers' choices of theme. And given her interest in Japanese and Egyptian mythologies, among others from outside the European subcontinent, I sure as hell don't believe she has a vested interest in strictly Eurocentric fantasy. What she's taking issue with isn't other fantasy writers differing in preferred subject matter from her own (which is more than can said someone like, say, Brad Torgersen), but certain activists demanding catering for their own ideologies. And you cannot deny such individuals exist. Why, I think we even have some in our own midst:

While you may read that into her OP that is not what she said.

She said she finds the issues of gender and racial diversity boring, and any attempts to redress those issues ultimately ineffective because of some (unspecified) greater flaw in humanity ("the disease rages on, consumes the human race").

Clearly she has some serious Gnosis here that she is not sharing.

She did not appear to be making the point you are. I think the point you make is "while discussion of diversity is cool, forcing people to change their work to match your worldview is not." I heartily agree with you.

MP's self referential message appears to be "I know that you folks think gender and racial equality, or the perhaps more accurately gender and racial inequality are important issues, but I find them boring and by some definition think you are wasting your time working on them."

She is perfectly entitled to that opinion, as I am entitled to the opinion that such a worldview is socially irresponsible, more than a little unrealistic, remarkably illogical, and "Epic Pooh".

 

[Trick]

As a white, Christian male it is often a fearful thing to contemplate. If I write about a character with different skin/gender/sexuality than mine (granted, the race is most likely to be made up but similarities are all it takes), will I be harassed if I make them evil? What if some are good and some are evil but not necessarily in the same category? For instance, the hero is gay but the villain has brown skin and is a woman? Am I racist and sexist but not homophobic?

I know most people don't react that way but those who do seem to think they are responsible for changing who I am or what I write and that stinks to high heaven of hypocrisy but there's nothing I can do or say that will improve it.

I'll say I agree with Mythopoet insofar as directly addressing sexism and racism in fantasy to deal with real world issues just bores the hell out of me. I get enough of it on the news, I don't need it in fantasy too.

However, having a mixed bag of characters with varying experiences/beliefs/ethnicity... Isn't that just good writing? If I have a dark skinned character who's never experienced racism because s/he lives on an imaginary planet, is that a problem? Is my theme not deep enough? Who gives a crap as long as s/he's interesting?

 

[Steerpike]

In addition to what LS said above, let me add that in addition to attacks if you start dragging in motives (or perceived motives, since you don't actually know them) of others, then you're off-subject and, furthermore, increasing the potential of the thread degenerating into inflammatory exchanges.

We're all writers here. We know how to use words. Further, I believe we know how to think about the issues on their own merits, without having to pretend that a person who thinks differently has suspect motives X, Y, or Z. If you can't discuss the subject without the need to get barbs in, actively or passively, whether in the form of improperly characterizing someone else's subjective motives or in any other fashion, please step away from the thread and come back to it when you can.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Okay, I'm not sure who started what and when it escalated from misunderstanding to intentional attack. I'm at a conference so I'm not even going to look into it. I'll just close the thread, and provided the attacks don't continue elsewhere, closing the thread is all I'll do.