Diversity: Multi ethnic and Biracial characters

[X Equestris]

@ascanius

See, the problem is you're looking at this from a white-centric view, with all other ethnicities being variations from the 'norm'. Truth is, white is not the default. There is no default. Same with gender. There is no such thing as 'shoe-horning' black characters into a story just for the sake of diversity, any more than there is such a thing as 'shoe-horning' white characters into a story. In case you hadn't noticed, the world is full of diverse people. Black people can be black and don't need a justification. Trans people can be trans and not need a justification for it. When you abandon the belief that it's possible for certain types of characters to be 'shoe-horned', you open up a whole new world of possibilities.


On a different note, I've seen this idea come up from a lot of people arguing against diversity that it stifles creativity by forcing writers into fulfilling arbitrary quotas. This is bullshit for one main reason. NO ONE IS BEING FORCED TO DO ANYTHING. Believe it or not, there is still a thing called creative freedom. You, as a writer, can do whatever the f*ck you want. You can write an all white, all straight cast if you want. It's your decision.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, thing is, I'm probably not gonna read your book if you do. I'm gonna criticise you for your decision, because freedom of expression is not freedom from criticism. These diversity threads aren't for telling people they must do this, or they must do that, it's for telling people why it would be a good idea to do this, why it would be beneficial for a writer to do that. Whether you take that criticism into account or completely ignore it is, again, completely up to you.

But now for my final point, which gets right to the root of the matter. Why is diversity good in the first place? Now, I've spent arduous hours toiling away on this matter, and after great effort, I believe I have come to the ultimate conclusion...

Spoiler: the ultimate reason why a writer should strive for diversity in their writing

Because it's nice, ain't it?

I mostly agree with you, but I differ on one point: characters of a certain group can be shoehorned into a story. This would mostly be an issue in something based in the historical real-world, but it certainly can happen.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Alright here is the second thread I would like to address. This post should be significantly shorter. This deals with a person's fear of utilizing characters and being "offensive" if the minority characters are not perfect.

I as a straight, middle class, white male understand the concern. If you take one misstep a certain segment of the population will rip you to shreds and could ruin either your personal career or your writing career. However, I think this population is in the vast majority. Problem is they are also loud and will get some press. The only thing I can think of when it comes to offending people is to suck it up. No seriously just accept that and move on. Those people are generally idiots and will get offended at something you write no matter what. If you make a character too perfect they'll probably get mad at you. Generally they don't have a lot of power and if the discussion does go public you can exploit their stupidity.

Suppose I have a female assassin character who gives 30% of her bounties to orphanages in various cities (I do btw). She does this for two reasons: 1) she was an orphan; 2) she wants to help those kids move up from orphans and street urchins to productive non-criminal elements of society. Now let's suppose further that she meets a guy that she happens to like very much. She accomplishes all of her goals (starting a revolution to end the current tyranny and setting up a republic within the empire) and she is tired of being an assassin. She settles down and decides to have a child of her own. Whether she has a job or not I will get criticized for that ending. If she rests on all of the money she made being the best assassin in the land I will get criticized for making her a tough fighter that suddenly gives it all up for a family. Because of my background people will say I am trying to keep women down. If she becomes the spymaster of the new republic I will be criticized for making an impossible standard for women to have a job and child. Also, if I giver he no child I will be criticized by people saying that I think all women should be childless professionals.

The response is simple. If you rationally point out to the person that women can choose to be or do whatever they want then this particular female character can choose whether to have a baby and a job or no job and each decision is equally legitimate. If they disagree then the person proves that he/she is a hypocrite and just wants people to conform to their world view, not that they want actual freedom for a person to choose their life path. So long as you set up that character's choices and arc properly this notion of choice is going to be strong and will lend credibility to the character's ending.

As with all things in writing, including "diverse" characters is a matter of execution. You can't write a character as a caricature. They need to be deep. That depth needs to be set up properly. Their choices need to make sense according to the character and its relation to the story. You can make a gay villain, just so long as his homosexuality is not the reason why he's a villain. You can make a woman hero a weak fighter so long as she is strong in other ways. You can make a lesbian protagonist so long as she is not the stereotype of a lesbian. And really this is not all that hard to do. No one group is monolithic. Everyone in that group is different from everyone else. You could write an urban fantasy of a black transgender person and make that person a fiscal conservative but a social liberal and people would believe it if you did it right. Because people will always squawk if you write anything. Someone will always find offense. The real issue is if you actually made a deep character and did not make that person a caricature of a group.

 

[Ireth]

You can make a gay villain, just so long as his homosexuality is the reason why he's a villain. You can make a woman hero a weak fighter so long as she is strong in other ways. You can make a lesbian protagonist so long as she is not the stereotype of a lesbian.

Did you or did you not miss out a "not" in the bolded bit? Having a character be a villain solely because he's gay doesn't seem good to me, which is how your sentence reads as it's currently worded.

 

[X Equestris]

Did you or did you not miss out a "not" in the bolded bit? Having a character be a villain solely because he's gay doesn't seem good to me, which is how your sentence reads as it's currently worded.

I'm pretty sure there was an omitted "not" there. It doesn't really fit with the context otherwise.

 

[Steerpike]

**Everyone, please read this**

Diversity issues, issues of race, gender, sexuality, and so on, are important to the human condition, and as such they have a valid, important place across the entire body of human arts. That includes fantasy literature. We want to see these discussions continue on Mythic Scribes, but it is important that the members of this site be able to have those discussions in a way that respectful of the issues, of other members, and reflect well on the site and all of us.

To that end, please do not escalate tension or animosity in threads like this. If you disagree with an opinion, find a way to do it without profanity, insults, condescension, or attacks on other members. Do it without characterizing the other member, or putting words in their mouth. There have been points across all of these types of threads, over the years I've been here, where the discussion goes from one where people are at odds, but no one is calling names, using profanity, or otherwise attacking members, to a post or two that escalates the thread to a point where people are doing just that.

Do not be the person to escalate the thread. It doesn't lead to the kind of discourse we want and does not comport with the rules of the forum. I realize these issues touch on certain emotions in some people a lot more than others, and that's perfectly understandable, but at the end of the day we want to keep a certain level of professionalism and congeniality on these forums. If a thread is bothering you enough that you don't feel able to do that, please step away from the thread. If it is something that needs to be brought to a moderator's attention, please PM one of us.

Thank you all, in advance, for working to keep these discussions on an even keel so that we can still have them in these forums.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Whoops, totally missed that not there. That's what I get for not proofing first. Sorry if I caused confusion there.

 

[Ireth]

Whoops, totally missed that not there. That's what I get for not proofing first. Sorry if I caused confusion there.

I thought that was probably the case, but I figured I'd ask just to make sure.

 

[TheCatholicCrow]

**Everyone, please read this**

Diversity issues, issues of race, gender, sexuality, and so on, are important to the human condition, and as such they have a valid, important place across the entire body of human arts. That includes fantasy literature. We want to see these discussions continue on Mythic Scribes, but it is important that the members of this site be able to have those discussions in a way that respectful of the issues, of other members, and reflect well on the site and all of us.
.

Yes. Thank you.

I think this thread has kind of veered off and taken on a life of its own.

My intention was not to tell anyone that they need to change the way they write so that they can conform to my own desires and expectations as a reader. Rather, I simply wanted to point out that multi-ethnic people (whether it is in the form of half-white, half-black or half-dwarf half-elf or any other combination) is a character identity that is often overlooked.

For those that believe diversity is intended solely as a check in the box, I am curious if this is a conclusion derived from seeing discussions about diversity and writer's admissions concerning their intentions or from actually reading diverse literature?

As I've already said, I have no problem with straight "white" characters. I don't think we should entirely eliminate the straight white man from literature and to do so would present its own issues but we certainly can take the liberty of shaking things up a bit now and then. If you choose not to touch on issues of gender or sexuality, I'd understand that. Many either feel uncomfortable or otherwise lack the eloquence to fully express their views on the matter. Again, I don't think we should ignore it but I do understand where you are coming from and I can respect that.

What I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around is the idea that including multiethnic people is somehow a social or political statement. It's not. It can be. But it doesn't have to be. We aren't mythical creatures (though of course in your world we can be). We do exist and we pretty much always have. For me it has nothing to do with challenging "the man" or the status quo. It doesn't have to do with skin color or "disadvantages" or social justice. It has to do with reality and wanting to not always be portrayed as someone who hates a part of herself. Or as someone who rises above her tainted ancestry.

I realize that multiethnic people will not fit into every world. I'm not asking everybody to include us in every story they write. I just want people to consider the possibility, that when more than one group of people are present in a single place, that two people from opposing groups might fall in love or produce offspring together.

I'm not asking anyone to write anything that they don't want to. I only wanted to throw it out there as something to consider for those that care about offering a more diverse representation of humanity (or magical creatures ... or robots ... or whatever you're into).

Thank you to everyone that has participated in this discussion. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I've recently made a rather large decision with regards to my current long-standing WIP, and that it that I've chosen to make the main protagonist, who previously was white, mixed race. Alek Stove's father Aven Cadwyn hails from the Wynding Valleys (which is pretty much Wales), while his mother Zahrah Stove comes from Goljahan (which draws influence from several Arabic nations). I've already found that this gives the character of Alek a few more dimensions than I thought, and makes him (to me, at least) a more interesting character.

It didn't help that I came to this decision after finishing the first book in the series, but I was set on this change, and luckily it wasn't too difficult to make the necessary changes to the novel. It's written in first person, so there aren't many times when Alek's appearance is actually described, and thankfully his parents are only mentioned in passing on a few occasions, so that wasn't too hard.

Overall, this change doesn't actually affect the story much at all, but I feel as though the change was worth making if it means PoCs get even just a little bit more representation in fantasy fiction (if/when it ever gets published, that is).

Today, I made a similar decision: to commit to having a biracial (Eurasian) character in my series.

It took a while to decide who, and I finally realized an existing character in Addison Lane's stories is a perfect fit. It's the "straight friend" Addy pines for and also my Dragon's Egg character, Baldhart Eisenberg. Her hairstyle is already a Chinese style (ox horns), and her father is Germanic–like a bulked-up Schwarzenegger. Her mother is, according to the Dragon's Egg twist, of the people native to the land her father's people settled on.

Given the East-meets-West world my stories take place in, it would make sense that my already-bicultural character has an "eastern" mom and "western" dad. It wouldn't even change the appearance of the character. All I'm really doing is adding another layer to the mother, who's not as fleshed out as my major characters are. I had already pictured her as petite/lean and dark-haired.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Rather, I simply wanted to point out that multi-ethnic people (whether it is in the form of half-white, half-black or half-dwarf half-elf or any other combination) is a character identity that is often overlooked.

I agree, which is in-part why I'm surprised it took me this long to have one of my characters officially biracial. I keep saying biracial people, like my daughters, need representation. So where the hell was I on that one?

As for "fantasy races," I do have a half-halfling valkyrie. (That's her race in Dragon's Egg. When I first drew her, she was just inexplicably short.)

 

[Devor]

I don't believe I've used a biracial character. That's partly because I haven't thought enough about it, and partly because I like to dive head first into the cultures I create, and take a view of them from within, and I'm not sure whether being biracial would shift that perspective somewhat. I'll have to think about it.

I did have a setting using half-elves and half-dwarves. The full elves and dwarves were intended to be close to the original mythology, and the half-race version came across closer to (but not quite) the typical D&D elves and dwarves. Real elves would dance in the woods and leave you insane ten years in the future, sometimes leaving women pregnant with a half-elven baby that would have funny ears and be good with swordplay and magic and struggle a little with their racial identity.

 

[Tom]

I was just thinking about it, and I realized that nearly 25% of my characters or biracial or multiracial. Maybe it's because I enjoy portraying the different attitudes people can have to their heritage--balancing between both/all of their cultural heritage, rejecting one side of it, ignoring both sides...The possibilities are endless and fascinating.

@Devor: I like using half-elves too. There's just something about them that's appealing. Elves are such an alien race, so strange and almost frightening. It's hard to portray them properly because they're so...non-human. I think half-elves are the way we bridge that gap--they're both familiar and unfamiliar, human and non-human.

 

[TheCatholicCrow]

I like using half-elves too. There's just something about them that's appealing. Elves are such an alien race, so strange and almost frightening. It's hard to portray them properly because they're so...non-human. I think half-elves are the way we bridge that gap--they're both familiar and unfamiliar, human and non-human.

Not exactly an elf but I feel like the same could be said of Spock. Being full Vulcan would be too similar to just having a robot but making him mixed gives him a bit more depth and the ability to occasionally say or do something remarkably human.

 

[Ireth]

I've occasionally had a lot of fun with mixed-race characters. One is part-human, part-Fae; he was initially fully human, but living in Faerie for a thousand years changed him irrevocably. When one day he develops a crush on an elf-maiden (elves =/= Fae, at least in this canon), he struggles a lot to reconcile the two halves of his psyche -- the human half that insists on letting a romance blossom with time, and the Fae half that insists on calling her "his" and taking her as his lover with or without her consent, as Fae all too often do.

And further complicating things is the fact that her affections are divided between him and an elf guy. The two guys handle the situation like gentlemen, neither one seeking to discredit or one-up the other, which perhaps makes things even more difficult for the poor girl. A threesome is out of the question, since not everyone would be willing. In the end she chooses to remain single, and they're all okay with that.

Wow, that rambled off-topic a bit. ^^; /derail

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Here's something I've been thinking about: why can't we use fantasy race tensions to be analogues for race issues within the world.

Take for example the recent cop shootings in the US that seem to be racially motivated. Now let's put that in an analogue where humans are living in an Elven country and get killed. You could make a story out of that, although I suppose that does not make the story diverse technically, but it does address some problems that the U.S. is facing currently. This also allows a writer who would be reluctant to write skin-tone diverse characters to still deal with these very serious problems. Further, if a writer chooses to use this method they are still free to include real world racial diversity, or sexual diversity, or whatever kind of diversity you wanted.

This is kind of just a half formed thought but I want to get y'all's take on it.

 

[Steerpike]

Here's something I've been thinking about: why can't we use fantasy race tensions to be analogues for race issues within the world.

You certainly can do so. I think a fair amount of this was done in SF of the 60s and 70s. More recently, Octavia Butler uses the Ina in her book Fledgling to do some of this.

 

[Russ]

You certainly can do so. I think a fair amount of this was done in SF of the 60s and 70s. More recently, Octavia Butler uses the Ina in her book Fledgling to do some of this.

I do indeed think this has been done in various forms of spec fic from time to time.

It remains a fine idea. Personally I think good literature makes comment and helps us think about the human condition without being too preachy. Fantasy is particularly well placed and structured to achieve this.

 

[Feo Takahari]

On the flipside, fantasy can also be used to generalize what might otherwise be seen as a specific statement. Take Winds of the Forelands, for instance--the villain just wants power and control, but he gets followers by exploiting racial tensions, and a lot of his supporters are genuinely angry about the raw deal they've gotten. Set that sort of race war in the real world, and it'd be hard to separate it from real-life controversies. With fantasy races, the author can talk about the patterns that occur wherever there's oppression. (I'm not sure how successful he is, but that's another kettle of fish.)

 

[buyjupiter]

Here's something I've been thinking about: why can't we use fantasy race tensions to be analogues for race issues within the world.

Take for example the recent cop shootings in the US that seem to be racially motivated.

The secondary reading of my troll story does just this (sometimes a troll is just a troll, but most of the time there's a second layer underneath that).

And this may be why I'm having difficulty with the story. :-/ I want to get it right, without getting it wrong, if ya know what I mean. I haven't shelved it yet, but I'm having difficulties with my feelings about what's going on in real life right now. Why I expect that I'll have any clarity and insight by writing fiction is beyond me...

But I think this is one of those things I have to do, in order to stretch myself as a writer. Otherwise, I'd stick to writing the Miss Marple in Faerie stories until I grew sick and tired of them (what I'm familiar with), or I'd write more alien invasion stories (what I like doing). (side note: when I was telling my mum that she might like to read a new short I finished about King Arthur, the first words out of her mouth were "does it have aliens in it?" because apparently I've been building a rep [within my family at least] of writing about aliens a lot. I swear there have only been three alien stories, out of 25-30ish total.).

But yeah, I think that you can use aliens in SF as a way of exploring current socio-political issues (so long as it isn't *BAM* your reader over the head, mind) or half-elves as a way of exploring racial identity in fantasy. I think there may be some issues (ok a lot of issues) that one has to be cognizant of when choosing that path, but so long as research gets done and opinions are asked for and there aren't any great standing on soapbox moments within the text I think you can accomplish some of those goals.

And more on topic: NK Jemisin's "The Inheritance Trilogy" features a biracial (I think, if not, then definitely multi-ethnic) MC narrator. Who has a bit of a wink and nod relationship with the audience. I've never felt like I'm part of the narrator's conspiracy, or that I have knowledge ahead of time, quite like this before and I'm really digging it. I can't believe it's taken me this long to get round to it. (I'm also looking at my novel dealing with some similar world building and thinking it's nowhere near this good and I'm going to have to kick it up a few notches. I'm not envious--I'm in *awe*.)

 

[Mindfire]

Here's something I've been thinking about: why can't we use fantasy race tensions to be analogues for race issues within the world.

The situation of the elves in Dragon Age could be seen as a mirror of the real life struggles of some minority groups, especially Native Americans and African Americans. The elves have had their land invaded and seized by foreigners, been made to agree to treaties with the humans which were then broken because treaties with heathens don't count, had their culture and history largely erased, been sold into slavery, and now either live in inner city slums or in close-knit communities with a deep suspicion of outsiders while desperately trying to recover and preserve their lost heritage, with those in the latter category looking down on their kin who assimilate into human culture.

...It's pretty on-the-nose, actually.