Does Anyone Else Hate Sympathetic Villains?

[Androxine Vortex]

I do not like villains who are evil for no reason. Typically, a villain starts out as good or in some cases neutral. Something happens to them or something begins to change their way of thinking that makes them lose their pathway. I like it when villains have a slow decline into their "evil" ways. Like a quote from my Dawn of War II game, "Small steps corrupt."

Maybe the villain is more of a politician? I can see a room full of politicians trying to win the favor of each other so even though they may not be "evil" they will have deceit in their nature and selfishness about their actions and motives. Maybe the villain just chooses to ignore their sense of morality? Maybe they go about plundering towns, not carring for the lives they destroy but instead focus and crave on their greed to reap their rewards.

Even though a lot of people say that there is a gray line between good and evil and that there really isn't good or evil, there is. It might be difficult to understand but there clearly is. That's why it's our job as a writter to invent a villain who doesn't see it that way, who might believe themself to be good. Or maybe they know what they are doing is bad but they do it anyway for some sort of gain. We have to find a way to justify their actions, at least in their mentality.

Someone mentioned pity. Think about Gollum. He is evil, not by his own fault, but it's safe to say he has darkness within him. Bilbo knew Gollum was going to kill him and eat him and yet, he spared him because he saw a tortured creature wallowing in the darkness, and he took pity on him. I think Gollum is a fantastic sympathetic villain because at times you love him, and others you hate him.

I've been reading the Silmarilion lately (possible spoilers!!!)

and I really like how Melkor (Morgoth) became evil. He started out as a holy being who was created to sing beautiful music. And it was beautiful but he wanted to glorify his part of the "theme" so he often went away from his brothers and sisters (into the void) and thought of ways to make his own glory. I like this because Tolkien made a point that when he was alone in the void, and because he began to think thoughts alone, his new thoughts were not like his brethren who all took equal share in the "theme" and "thought" together as one. I don't know why but I think this is really cool concept, that since he departed away from what he was supposed to be doing and everyone knew how to act accordingly and all had the same mentality, since he went away from them and thought new thoughts of his own(selfishness) he basically had a new mentality, a new way of thinking, thoughts that were different from his brethren.

There's all kinds of ways to make villains, but in regards to your problem with sympathetic ones, and all ones in general, it depends for me on the specific villain and reasoning behind his/her ways. I do get annoyed if someone goes out and kills a lot of people and people say, "well, he was bullied as a child." Is this a believable concept? yes, it is, it happens every day in our real world socirty, sadly. But looking at it from a fictional viewpoint, it can be boring because i think we are so used to it by this point. But as I said there are ways to make good sympathetic villains, you just have to make them stand out, that's all.

 

[Rkcapps]

Apart from everyone's discussions, I'd just like to say, how cool would it be as an author to elicit the intensity of your reaction to Redcloak. To evoke such emotion in a reader, whether good or bad, must be our goal, yes? I wonder if the author wrote hoping for just your kind of reaction?

 

[Gurkhal]

I always loved and love symphatic villains. Nothing is more boring to me than a black hat as the antagonist. I know that I've ditched otherwise good books due to this reason alone.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Thread back from the dead!

Anyway, am I alone in feeling that villains should always be somewhat sympathetic? For me, if you can't relate to a character on any level, that character isn't really a character. Even if I don't sympathize with the villain necessarily, I want to see their motivations as being basically human and understand why they do what they do. I also want to be able to understand why the villain sees himself as the hero (as I think villains do.)

I can occasionally love unsympathetic villains if they're just egregiously sadistic and psychopathic in an interesting way and/or have some form of Blue and Orange Morality. Otherwise they bore me. For instance, Lord Voldemort...giving him basically sociopathic tendencies even from childhood killed it for me, and if the thing about Voldemort not being able to love due to being conceived under the effects of a love potion is true, he doesn't even qualify as a character in my view. Making an antagonist "evil by nature" seems to me rather lazy. You're basically ducking out of giving your character a reason for what they do. Personally, I don't like it.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

^Maybe J K Rowling was worried about rabid fans going on about how 'Tom' is not a villain and not to blame for his actions'?

 

[TheKillerBs]

^Maybe J K Rowling was worried about rabid fans going on about how 'Tom' is not a villain and not to blame for his actions'?

Well, having read the amount of HP fanfiction that I have, if that was her motivation it certainly did not reach everyone. But really, Voldemort is who he is because Harry Potter is a children's book series at heart. Yes, the latter books were a bit more mature as the readers grew a bit more mature but it started as a children's book series and the characters basically remained as children's book characters. That's why they're all one-dimensional. Except Ron.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

I wouldn't call Dumbledore one dimensional.

 

[Devor]

I also want to be able to understand why the villain sees himself as the hero (as I think villains do.)

. . . . you know, I don't think that's true at all. I mean, who really thinks of themselves as heroes?

 

[Steerpike]

I wouldn't call Dumbledore one dimensional.

Nor does “children’s book” mean “one-dimensional,” unless you just haven’t read many good children’s books.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

^^Good point. Maybe instead: that most people think of themselves as unarguably right in their actions and beliefs?

 

[Devor]

^^Good point. Maybe instead: that most people think of themselves as unarguably right in their actions and beliefs?

I'm not sure how that's different . . . . do you feel that way about yourself? I sure don't.

 

[FifthView]

I see the villain-thinks-himself-the-hero-of-his-own-story as merely a description of how villains see themselves as striving for a desirable and worthy goal. A task has fallen to them. They are the only ones who can do it. They have a right to try and succeed. Everyone opposing them is in the wrong, a villain, an unworthy would-be changer-of-the-world, That sort of thing.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

^That's kind of what I meant in my last post.

 

[FifthView]

I'm not sure how that's different . . . . do you feel that way about yourself? I sure don't.

Oh sure you do. When you are arguing a point in a debate like this, you wouldn't bother if you didn't think you had a special insight, something only you could deliver in this one, specific instance, and had a right to press your point. Heh.

We all do this, I think, in one way or another.

 

[FifthView]

Which is only to say that you might, indeed, be the hero. Or the villain. Who knows?

 

[Devor]

I see the villain-thinks-himself-the-hero-of-his-own-story as merely a description of how villains see themselves as striving for a desirable and worthy goal. A task has fallen to them. They are the only ones who can do it. They have a right to try and succeed. Everyone opposing them is in the wrong, a villain, an unworthy would-be changer-of-the-world, That sort of thing.

I know a lot of people who readily admit (with varying degrees of severity) that they are selfish and don't give a damn. Why should that be unrealistic?

 

[FifthView]

Devor, I don't see how the one comment relates to the other, so I can't formulate an answer.

I'll...take a stab at it? I don't think that seeing oneself as being selfish and admitting it is somehow not seeing oneself as the hero. The quality of selfishness might be seen as a heroic quality. A right quality to have, in that case.

I don't know what realism has to do with the question, however...?

 

[Steerpike]

I see the villain-thinks-himself-the-hero-of-his-own-story as merely a description of how villains see themselves as striving for a desirable and worthy goal. A task has fallen to them. They are the only ones who can do it. They have a right to try and succeed. Everyone opposing them is in the wrong, a villain, an unworthy would-be changer-of-the-world, That sort of thing.

Ever read Banewreaker, by Jacqueline Carey? It’s a LotR style fantasy except from the point of view of the “dark lord” who considers himself to be in the right (and may well be right). It is an interesting book (first of two).

 

[FifthView]

Anyway, am I alone in feeling that villains should always be somewhat sympathetic? For me, if you can't relate to a character on any level, that character isn't really a character. Even if I don't sympathize with the villain necessarily, I want to see their motivations as being basically human and understand why they do what they do. I also want to be able to understand why the villain sees himself as the hero (as I think villains do.)

I can understand this. Nothing wrong with that. But it's not how I feel about the villain-sees-himself-as-the-hero-of-his-own-story. (So much hyphenation! But it does all seem to need to be put together that way....)

I like using that when I'm designing villains, but I don't think that a villain's view of himself automatically makes him sympathetic, nor that it must. Sometimes a wrong view actually makes him less sympathetic. For instance, in the case of some extremist views about race, or pathological megalomania.. I can know a villain's logic and despise him for it even more.

Sometimes, I can despise a villain greatly but still think the whole situation's tragic, unfortunate. But, it is what it is.

 

[FifthView]

Ever read Banewreaker, by Jacqueline Carey? It’s a LotR style fantasy except from the point of view of the “dark lord” who considers himself to be in the right (and may well be right). It is an interesting book (first of two).

Nope, haven't read it. Sometimes I like that mystery of trying to decide what I think and feel about such characters, so that sounds interesting.