Fantasy heroes and swords

[Ravana]

Astonishingly, Wikipedia has actually come to be quite reliable, as others have noted. I was briefly involved as one of the "everyones" contributing to it (mostly just correcting grammatical errors.…), and I can tell you from experience that there are innumerable people who absolutely hover over the thing, checking up on every change made to articles within their personal sphere of experience/obsession, and who will notice and reverse any illicit or questionable change within minutes of its being made. No, you shouldn't use it as a primary source (especially if you're taking one of my classes! ); on the other hand, no encyclopedia makes a good primary source, because no encyclopedia is a primary source. I use Wikipedia to fact-check on things I want to find out (or remind myself of) quickly; if I feel I'm going to need to back something up, I can (and do) use the citation list in the article as a jumping-off point for further research.

Where do I learn all this stuff? Oh, no, you're going to make me say it, aren't you? The horror, the horror.…

"I read a lot." (No! Not the Comfy Cliché! Aaaaahhhh.…)

Seriously: that's pretty much it. I'm an information sponge. I know a bit about everything because I want to know everything about everything–which is impossible, but as impossible goals go, it's one of the better ones to have. I have stronger and weaker areas; historical weaponry is one of the stronger ones (thank you, RPGs and SCA), but I'm just as interested in astrophysics, paleontology, languages, and law, and only marginally less interested in irises (the flowers, that is), antidepressants, and shiny rocks. I guess that's the key: become interested in something, and you'll learn about it; since just about everything interests me.…

(Don't ask me computer questions. Or cooking questions. Even then, I may know the answer… but those are two things I am not interested in, apart from the effects they may have on my storytelling. Cooking, at least, can generally be avoided; computers are a bit trickier, if you're writing SF.… )

 

[Ophiucha]

Cooking, at least, can generally be avoided.

This is hilarious to me because the only major subplot of my novel is about food.

 

[Ravana]

As to specific books on historical weaponry: I'd have to look. So much of it has come in bits and dribbles from a variety of sources that I'm not sure I even have a single, moderately comprehensive reference work. (Oh: and you will run into considerable terminological variation from one text to another, too, so this can be somewhat frustrating at times… which may be why I can't recall a definitive text on the matter.)

 

[Ravana]

This is hilarious to me because the only major subplot of my novel is about food.

Hee hee. Each to his own. I like Brust (well, "adore" would probably come closer), admire his evident in-depth knowledge of the subject, and would be happy to eat a meal he'd cooked… but doubt I'll ever employ that level of detail about food in anything I write.

Unless, of course, the story requires it. Which I could easily happening, no matter how much I tried to avoid it. In which case, I'll delve into my own limited storehouse of knowledge, figure out what I still need to know, and go learn it.

(P.S. One of my current side-projects at the moment is–you ready for this?–editing a friend's manuscript for a cookbook.… )

 

[Donny Bruso]

The advantage to cooking in a story is you get to foist the actual work off on one of your characters, and just announce the results. Either it's edible and fantastic, edible and awful, or just inedible. And... No cleanup! Woot! The downside of course is you may sit there after writing the scene and go 'You know, that would be really good about now...'

 

[osimur_wil]

Swords are a symbol of war, knightly honor, and chivalry. The longsword is a symbol of nobility that has survived far beyond its obsolescence.

Also, because of stories such as those of King Arthur, magic swords are something of a shorthand for heroic purpose combined with the previously mentioned nobility.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This is an interesting topic...

I don't think any of my main characters use swords. My weapon of choice is typically knives for them. Knife fight scenes are way more intimate and risky feeling than sword fight scenes, so I really like writing them in action, but I don't think that's the real reason. My main characters usually aren't heroes and leaders who fight for their countries. Typically, they are people blending into the large scheme of things, fighting for those they love. Could the choice of knives as a weapon reflect that? Interesting...

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

But also, when I think about it, the number of characters I have that actually use physical weapons is quite low. The greatest weapon of many is their mind.

Or their powers. Or their dragon.

 

[R.H. Smith]

I like guns specifically for all the reasons mentioned above, though my love is in that 'in your face' type of assault. For me, there is nothing more exhilarating than two people fighting to the death, sweat and blood flying around, the ring of metal on metal...you get the gist. But!!!! (yes, there's a but) My weapon of choice is either mace or morningstar, as opposed to a sword. My swords always have similar traits: they are always curved, (don't like broadswords as they take too much time and energy to wield) have blood grooves, can be held one or two handed. With the mace, it's about hearing and seeing the 'crunch' of someones face being caved in I also like dark, bloody and gory (realist here).

 

[TheKillerBs]

(don't like broadswords as they take too much time and energy to wield)

What? Broadswords don't take too much time or energy to wield — if they did, they would have never seen the battlefield.

 

[Malik]

My weapon of choice is either mace or morningstar, as opposed to a sword. My swords always have similar traits: they are always curved, (don't like broadswords as they take too much time and energy to wield) have blood grooves, can be held one or two handed. With the mace, it's about hearing and seeing the 'crunch' of someones face being caved in I also like dark, bloody and gory (realist here).

If you like realism, then I would strongly suggest that you visit the Ask Me About Swords thread in Research. Most of what you're talking about above regarding swords is wrong. And it's often written wrong in fantasy, which is why we have the Research section on this board.

A broadsword and a curved sword take exactly the same energy to wield. It could be argued that a good longsword or bastard sword takes less.

The difference is the way you fight with it. If you use a medieval longsword like a scimitar, well, you're gonna die. A two-handed longsword is a miracle of engineering: it has a peculiar center of gravity that keeps the point directed at the opponent no matter which way you move the base, which is the key to fighting with it. You can parry through all of your guards and wards and still be inches away from stabbing your opponent the whole time. Longsword fights are scary fast and have zero margin of error. A good longswordsman can give a rapier fencer a very bad day with a sword three times the size.

The business end of a Type XX greatsword -- one of those honkin', five- or six-foot, six- to eight-pound suckers -- is alarmingly nimble. You maneuver the point by levering it with one hand on the pommel; they're not swung like sledgehammers. It's just as fast as the longsword. Maybe faster if your opponent has good feet. A good Montante or Spadone fighter is a nightmare to work against.

There is no reason to have a two-handed curved sword. I've handled a two-handed falchion (really more of a kilij with a chopping tip) that had a slight curve, but it was a fantasy weapon made on a custom, one-off deal. That second hand, as discussed above, is used to lever a big sword, not to swing it like a bat. The falchion made use of this because it carried its weight far forward. The percussive center on a curved sword is usually too far back to make proper use of a pommel as a secondary grip. I can see how a long handle with a heavy pommel could be used as a counterweight on a really heavy curved sword (like a kilij), but I'm not aware of any two-handed techniques for scimitar or saber. I could be wrong, but I've been swordfighting for about 30 years, now, and I've never heard of such a thing. If you have examples, please post them; I love finding out new things.

If you want to use a two-handed scimitar, cool; you've got your work cut out for you, though, designing a combat system around it is going to take some effort.

Morningstars -- if you're talking about chain flails -- are slow. Actually, technically, the end moves very fast, but in combat, speed is a function of perception and a matter of stripping away excess motion. A snake doesn't move any faster than you do; it just has no wind-up or tensing before it attacks, so it seems very fast. Your eye is conditioned to key in on preparatory motion. This is the same reason a boxer's jab will lay you out before you see it: no excess motion.

It's the blow you don't see coming that ends you. The problem is that you have to keep a flail moving, or you have to telegraph the hell out of your blow to get it moving. Your opponent sees it coming; he knows exactly where it's going to be, and he has about a week and a half to decide what to do. Your best bet with a chain flail is to wait until your target is doing something else -- fighting another opponent, adjusting his armor, making a sandwich -- and then hit him with it. It's a useless weapon except in the heat of battle when you can catch someone not looking. Come at me with nunchuks sometime and I'll show you.

Lastly, there is no such thing as a "blood groove." The removed material from the spine of a sword is called a fuller, and it serves to lighten and stiffen the weapon. Sword spines were typically iron, and the edges steel. The fuller helped lighten the sword and give the iron section less chance of bending in a fight.

 

[TheKillerBs]

The katana and nodachi are two-handed curved swords, although the jury's still out on the nodachi ever having been more than just a ceremonial object.

 

[Malik]

Valid. I do like to pretend the katana never existed. I see it in far too many fantasy novels written by katana / anime fanboys, cutting through armor like it's a lightsaber. Which is where I snarl and throw the book away.

I was thinking more along the lines of a backsword, Khopesh, or Kilij, that carries its center of gravity in (or in front of) the curve. You are correct, though.

 

[TheKillerBs]

Man the khopesh is so awesome yet unused because very few people know about it. One of the biggest injustices of fiction.

 

[Malik]

Man the khopesh is so awesome yet unused because very few people know about it. One of the biggest injustices of fiction.

Such a weird weapon, too. It makes no sense in my hand. I mean, I get what it's supposed to do; I just have no freakin' idea how to get it to do it without getting killed in the process. The rotational inertia makes it want to jump out of your hands when you swing it. I don't know how you'd keep the thing tracking through a cut unless you had forearms like Popeye.

A swordsmith buddy who made one and let me play with it believed that they were originally made out of bronze (and maybe even copper) and the design had something to do with the material. Anyway, there's probably a reason that the design was abandoned three thousand years ago.

 

[ThinkerX]

My characters weapons...

Most of the knights are proficient with lance and broadsword, though a few prefer battle axes.

Others are either current or former members of quasi-roman legions, with training in short swords, spears, javelins, and more recently, bows and crossbows. Newly introduced: exploding crossbow quarrels.

Carrying a sword or bow in civilized lands without proper authority is grounds for immediate arrest. Highborn can flaunt this rule if they care to do so. Hunters in rural areas can have bows, bodyguards and caravan guards can have clubs, short swords, and bows or crossbows...if they have the permits. Otherwise, its improvised stuff - staffs, knives, maybe the odd hammer or ax.

 

[Malik]

There are reasons to use a curved blade. My deployment rig includes a shovel-edge Khukri, AKA "The Death Spatula."

As a boxer, I wanted a piece that would penetrate soft armor, and yet let me punch reflexively with it. Tinker came up with this nasty little bastard, drawing on the Khukri for a variation on his NSFK (No **** Fighting Knife).

The curve and the angle of the handle versus the blade is such that the point tracks with the major bones of the arm during a thrust; you can put your whole body behind it and there is no impact on your wrist. In an ice-pick grip, the leading edge of the blade is at 90 degrees to the major bones of the hand and arm. If I get my bell rung, I can still shell up into the same guard that I've used since grade school and box with it.

 

[TheKillerBs]

Such a weird weapon, too. It makes no sense in my hand. I mean, I get what it's supposed to do; I just have no freakin' idea how to get it to do it without getting killed in the process. The rotational inertia makes it want to jump out of your hands when you swing it. I don't know how you'd keep the thing tracking through a cut unless you had forearms like Popeye.

A swordsmith buddy who made one and let me play with it believed that they were originally made out of bronze (and maybe even copper) and the design had something to do with the material. Anyway, there's probably a reason that the design was abandoned three thousand years ago.

Oh man, I am so jealous. I'd love to get my hands on one of those and swing it around a bit. Yeah, they were definitely made of bronze, considering they never made it to the Iron Age... From what I understand, they were developed from axes, so I would assume that's how they would be used but considering I've never tried, I really can't say much. I like to think that rather than completely disappearing, the khopesh developed into similarly curved blades such as the kopis.

 

[Malik]

Oh man, I am so jealous. I'd love to get my hands on one of those and swing it around a bit. Yeah, they were definitely made of bronze, considering they never made it to the Iron Age... From what I understand, they were developed from axes, so I would assume that's how they would be used but considering I've never tried, I really can't say much. I like to think that rather than completely disappearing, the khopesh developed into similarly curved blades such as the kopis.

It's so weird; the moment you cut into something with it, it breaks away from your wrist. I honestly don't know how it worked.

 

[Gurkhal]

I'll just throw in that my characters use all kind of weapons but given that I don't feel that I have enough knowledge about them, I try to avoid going into the details in the writing.