Are "Mechanized Carriages" Too Advanced for a Flintlock Fantasy?

[Patrick-Leigh]

The Stirling engine had a big problem:

"The need for Stirling engines to run at very high temperatures to maximize power and efficiency exposed limitations in the materials of the day, and the few engines that were built in those early years suffered unacceptably frequent failures (albeit with far less disastrous consequences than boiler explosions). For example, the Dundee foundry engine was replaced by a steam engine after three hot cylinder failures in four years." - Wikipedia

If those issues relating to materials could be addressed then the Stirling engine would be feasible. It might also be worth looking at why the Stirling engine still isn't widely used except by the Swedish navy in some of its submarines and a few other applications. Also, keep in mind the importance of cost as a factor when looking at such things. If it requires a lot of repairs or if it costs too much to run the rich will ditch them, even if it is more efficient than a steam or internal combustion engine.

The issues can be addressed (at a significant financial cost) with a combination of exotic materials, Transmutation, and the right Enchantments. I'm developing ideas for a metal that conducts heat very well without warping or melting to be used in the boilers of magical steam engines. That same material would logically be used in the Stirling engines to heat the gas in the cylinders. Transmutation could be used to reinforce all the material components of the engine so they are less likely to break down. An Anti-Friction Matrix could ensure that the wear and tear is further reduced and improve the efficiency of the engines to a significant degree. I could also throw in an exotic gas of some kind that expands more in response to less heat than conventional gases. Maybe the more exited the atoms/molecules become, the more they repel each other, increasing how much the gas expands while decreasing the heat requirement. Those are just a few ideas of how the efficiency and durability of the engines could be handled, but, of course, it would make the expense far higher. Thus, you'd really get what you paid for with these vehicles. A cheaper model is going to be more likely to break down while the most expensive models are going to running smoothly for decades with only occasional maintenance being required, at least on the engine. The wheels, brakes, suspension, shocks, lights, body, and so forth, might not be nearly as durable.

 

[ThinkerX]

I have 'mechanized carriages' of a sort on the 'Empty World' (still in early development). These are electric 'golf cart' type vehicles, capable of carrying up to four people, top speed of about 45 mph (if you are going downhill) with a range of a couple hundred miles. They are very basic.

These devices, among others, ranging from cameras and lightbulbs to crude radios and bicycles, were not invented by the few locals but were copied in simplified form from Earth tech brought to that world by groups exploring dangerously unstable portals. Those doing the copying were dwarves, who stemmed from a society with an early 19th-century level of tech (in a highly uneven form.)

 

[_Michael_]

What if the bearing technology was more advanced than your steam ideas thanks to, say, tinker gnomes or something along those lines? lmao Horse-powered (by way of a treadmill to a flywheel with advanced bearings) land ships with sails for "wind boosters."

 

[Patrick-Leigh]

What if the bearing technology was more advanced than your steam ideas thanks to, say, tinker gnomes or something along those lines? lmao Horse-powered (by way of a treadmill to a flywheel with advanced bearings) land ships with sails for "wind boosters."

Actually, wheel bearings are something that horse drawn vehicles use in my setting at this point and they were invented by Gnome engineers. They’re typically cylindrical roller bearings (since it’s much faster to make a long metal dowel and cut it into smaller pieces than it is to make metal spheres used in ball bearings) and are made using materials that are Transmuted with Vitric Energy to reduce friction so they don’t need to be lubricant very often, though this can actually make the wheels turn a little too easily if the process is done improperly, which can be a real problem when you’re going down a steep incline and the vehicle starts to move faster than the horses. Some bearings can be Enchanted to double as brakes. Pull a lever and they’re charged with Viscid Energy to increase friction and stop rotation, though this is generally used as a parking brake, not while the vehicle is in motion.

I’m still figuring out ideas for the metal tyres that go on the outside of carriage wheels, since I want to have them evolve when they start being attached to mechanized carriages.

 

[skip.knox]

Metal tires? Yikes! That's going to be some noisy city!

 

[pmmg]

They'll just need rubber roads to make up for it.

 

[Patrick-Leigh]

Metal tires? Yikes! That's going to be some noisy city!

That depends on the speed they’re going. A regular carriage on a city street can get pretty loud on the right pavement with the right acoustics. But there are ways to Transmute materials so they make less noise. (Artillery sometimes has that feature to protect the ears of the gunners, for instance.) Also, rubber does exist in some forms in my setting. One of my big characters spends a few years as an indentured slave on a latex plantation. The unique properties of the soil cause the latex produced by the trees grow on it to have magical qualities, though I’m still deciding what they are. The point is a layer of rubber can be used on the tyres, potentially.

 

[SinghSong]

Also, another thing worth bearing in mind is that 'mechanized carriages' (of a sort) were around in the 1850's even IRL. Look up the case of Kirkpatrick MacMillan, in Glasgow in the late 1830's-early 1840's:

It isn't too hard to imagine a more entrepreneurial and business-minded individual issuing patents on such an invention, establishing their own company and factories to industrially produce them, and at the very least advancing to the production of cycle rickshaws at a 1850's 'flintlock tech' level of technology. And really, the only thing you'd need to do to adapt it for your 'mechanized carriage' would be to replace the motive force of the rider via the pedals with that of the stirling engine, and you'd be good to go. Though in a setting with non-human races (since you mentioned gnome engineers), if there are any other races who're significantly stronger and more powerful than humans, just using muscle-power to propel such carriages might well remain pretty competitive (imagine Orcs or Centaurs working as rickshaw taxi drivers in a flintlock-fantasy setting's city).

As for the full potential of what sort of advancements can be achieved even when capping one's self to a flintlock-tech level, I found out about this through a link in my feed a few days ago- think you might find it quite interesting:

Belton flintlock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[_Michael_]

This makes me want to have gnomes invent a four-wheeled two seater that is completely pedal-powered.

 

[Jackarandajam]

This makes me want to have gnomes invent a four-wheeled two seater that is completely pedal-powered.

You know, The Underdog is actually an extinct breed of dog they used to run on a wheel to turn meat in medieval kitchens...
Dog powered locomotion?

Edit: actually it would be hilarious if it were a pony in a giant wheel mounted in the back of the carriage. Like locomotion took a weird, backward tack and then just built on it.

 

[_Michael_]

You know, The Underdog is actually an extinct breed of dog they used to run on a wheel to turn meat in medieval kitchens...
Dog powered locomotion?

Rear-engine dog powered coupes. lol With pedal-powered turbo boosters.

 

[pmmg]

You know, The Underdog is actually an extinct breed of dog they used to run on a wheel to turn meat in medieval kitchens...
Dog powered locomotion?

Edit: actually it would be hilarious if it were a pony in a giant wheel mounted in the back of the carriage. Like locomotion took a weird, backward tack and then just built on it.

Is this true? I had never heard of that. Where they underdogs because they were under a table?

That's the Underdog I know

Only, he's got a big more pudge than I remember.

 

[Patrick-Leigh]

Also, another thing worth bearing in mind is that 'mechanized carriages' (of a sort) were around in the 1850's even IRL. Look up the case of Kirkpatrick MacMillan, in Glasgow in the late 1830's-early 1840's:

It isn't too hard to imagine a more entrepreneurial and business-minded individual issuing patents on such an invention, establishing their own company and factories to industrially produce them, and at the very least advancing to the production of cycle rickshaws at a 1850's 'flintlock tech' level of technology. And really, the only thing you'd need to do to adapt it for your 'mechanized carriage' would be to replace the motive force of the rider via the pedals with that of the stirling engine, and you'd be good to go. Though in a setting with non-human races (since you mentioned gnome engineers), if there are any other races who're significantly stronger and more powerful than humans, just using muscle-power to propel such carriages might well remain pretty competitive (imagine Orcs or Centaurs working as rickshaw taxi drivers in a flintlock-fantasy setting's city).

As for the full potential of what sort of advancements can be achieved even when capping one's self to a flintlock-tech level, I found out about this through a link in my feed a few days ago- think you might find it quite interesting:

Belton flintlock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, Centaurs do work as taxi drivers in my setting. And mail couriers, cavalry, and a myriad of other things. Part of the point of my setting is exploring ideas like that.

Anyway, I like your suggestion and I can see some models using similar mechanisms combined with a stirling engine. I also found out that electric vehicles were a thing in the late 19th Century, so while that’s past my normal cutoff date for technology, I could see a magical “magnetic engine” being feasible, albeit limited in production due to complexity. I’ll have to look more into how the historical EVs worked (though I do know they were not very fast or reliable.)

 

[ThinkerX]

Actually, Centaurs do work as taxi drivers in my setting. And mail couriers, cavalry, and a myriad of other things. Part of the point of my setting is exploring ideas like that.

Anyway, I like your suggestion and I can see some models using similar mechanisms combined with a stirling engine. I also found out that electric vehicles were a thing in the late 19th Century, so while that’s past my normal cutoff date for technology, I could see a magical “magnetic engine” being feasible, albeit limited in production due to complexity. I’ll have to look more into how the historical EVs worked (though I do know they were not very fast or reliable.)

Electric motors are far simpler and generally more powerful (torque) than either steam or internal combustion engines. Basically, you need a battery - something that inventors were screwing around with in the early 19th century - and a lot of (insulated) wire, though bearings would help. Then you'd need a belt to connect the motor with the axles.

 

[Patrick-Leigh]

Electric motors are far simpler and generally more powerful (torque) than either steam or internal combustion engines. Basically, you need a battery - something that inventors were screwing around with in the early 19th century - and a lot of (insulated) wire, though bearings would help. Then you'd need a belt to connect the motor with the axles.

According to the information I’ve looked at so far, the earliest EVs had a top speed of 4mph, so I’m not sure if they’d be more powerful, depending on the design and materials. But I’m still doing research, so don’t quote me on that.

 

[ThinkerX]

I believe that particular EV was pulling twenty tons at 4mph on a track.

That said, I could easily see EVs in a flintlock setting being the work of a jealous guild, a mechanically inclined race such as dwarves, or both (maybe two or three such factions at the same time). Wannabe imitators would have to develop the relevant battery and precise metallurgy for the wires and other components.

 

[_Michael_]

Under certain conditions, would not pedal-powered flywheels and the like to build up momentum with high differential gears like swing cheek double block and tackle lines of light chain be better? You wouldn't even really need bearings beyond the most basic types, if at all, and the effort-to-result ratio would be far greater, I feel.

 

[ThinkerX]

Under certain conditions, would not pedal-powered flywheels and the like to build up momentum with high differential gears like swing cheek double block and tackle lines of light chain be better? You wouldn't even really need bearings beyond the most basic types, if at all, and the effort-to-result ratio would be far greater, I feel.

There are people who modify bicycles to run on railway tracks.

 

[_Michael_]

There are people who modify bicycles to run on railway tracks.

See? There's nothing overly complex about these systems on a whole. With the proper motivation, such things would likely have been conceived of earlier and taken farther.

 

[Patrick-Leigh]

So, what I’m getting from this is I just need a Gnome engineer to come up with a way to connect a Stirling engine to a flywheel and a bicycle chain in order to get a mechanized carriage to be a bit more viable.