Follow-up discussion to "Female armour in fantasy books/games"

[JCFarnham]

So if enough people create female characters in their stories and games and art who have motivation and personalities as thoroughly developed as their male counterparts and are portrayed wearing practical, character-appropriate garb, people might get the wrong idea?

No of course not, it's the activist stance for it that could be a problem for forcing people to think "oh, well this person is telling me to think this, so it must be right, even though I don't get it." Not a problem on the face of it, more people believing in more 'appropriate' stuff is fine, but that doesn't really solve the problem.

I'm saying I'd rather people have the chance to build a truly healthy image of the world, through exposure to a little of both, rather than having no choice in the matter. (No choice leads to people who don't really get it. Just look at SlutWalk/Occupy/Etc. and the problems there.)

For without anything to highlight why something is good, how do we understand it?

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but real understanding is better than a surface level recognition. It's the different between saying there's nothing wrong with being ginger and everyone believing it fundementally and the problems stopping. One helps, and the other... kind of but not really.

 

[saellys]

The fact that I've never really thought much about any of this makes me feel like I am part of the problem.

Nah, you're just part of a society that has almost completely accepted it as a way of life. But now you're awake, Neo.

No of course not, it's the activist stance for it that could be a problem for forcing people to think "oh, well this person is telling me to think this, so it must be right, even though I don't get it." Not a problem on the face of it, more people believing in more 'appropriate' stuff is fine, but that doesn't really solve the problem.

I'm saying I'd rather people have the chance to build a truly healthy image of the world, through exposure to a little of both, rather than having no choice in the matter. (No choice leads to people who don't really get it. Just look at SlutWalk/Occupy/Etc. and the problems there.)

For without anything to highlight why something is good, how do we understand it?

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but real understanding is better than a surface level recognition. It's the different between saying there's nothing wrong with being ginger and everyone believing it fundementally and the problems stopping. One helps, and the other... kind of but not really.

Okay, I definitely agree with your last point. If "hypersexualized women" is all people understand of the problem, the solution will be "cover ALL the boobies" and we'll end up with a variation on The Handmaid's Tale, which is obviously not a solution at all.

That being said, I still believe that the most effective way to address the very specific problem of damaging portrayals of female characters in the fantasy genre is to point out specific examples of such portrayals and say, bluntly, "This isn't okay, and here's why." Sugar-coating it and mitigating language and saying, "I'd like it better if her boobs weren't the same size as her head and concealed only by a strip of leather" can be shrugged off a lot easier by the people who will respond "I like it just fine!" That article Steerpike posted in response to the D&D developer acknowledging sexism in the artwork he approves said specifically that for every one person who complains about a particular piece of art, ten more e-mail him to tell him how great it is, so why would he change anything?

A lot of people will just tune out after "This isn't okay," because they think it is okay, or at least they don't want their happy little world of being part of fandom X to be ruined by considering that some aspect of what they love might be problematic. (This comes up on Tumblr all the time, notably among fans of the show Sherlock who defend its co-creator, Steven Moffat, against claims of misogynist handling of female characters.) And others will stick around to argue, and that's great, because as long as people are arguing, ideas are (theoretically) being exchanged.

Education is a long and arduous process, but that doesn't make it any less important. The problem is that if I title a blog post, "The Basic Elements of Misogyny and How You Can Avoid Them," the overwhelming majority of the target audience would never read it because--surprise!--they don't consider themselves misogynist. A post titled, "Why [aspect of your favorite show] is Misogynist" has a chance of reaching more people and making them think about the content, simply because it is blunt and direct and specific about something they enjoy.

 

[Jabrosky]

The gratuitous sexualization issue aside, for me the irksome thing about the majority scantily clad fantasy heroines is that over 90% of them are Northern European in appearance. Northern Europe ranks among the worst places in the world to walk around outdoors in a bikini, chain-mail or not. Maybe you could pull it off in the summertime when the temperatures are milder, but outside that time frame you would shiver to death. Furthermore, we of Northern European descent have so little melanin in our skin that we're vulnerable to sunburn and skin cancer if we move closer to the Equator, which receives higher ultraviolet radiation. There's a reason Northern Europeans have historically worn more clothing than other peoples for most of the year.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Now, this is like the greatest coolness ever: Alice ready for the battle.

You can find a collection of detailed pictures of the Alice Armor right here!!

I love that movie =)

 

[saellys]

So... shiny...

 

[Shockley]

The gratuitous sexualization issue aside, for me the irksome thing about the majority scantily clad fantasy heroines is that over 90% of them are Northern European in appearance. Northern Europe ranks among the worst places in the world to walk around outdoors in a bikini, chain-mail or not. Maybe you could pull it off in the summertime when the temperatures are milder, but outside that time frame you would shiver to death. Furthermore, we of Northern European descent have so little melanin in our skin that we're vulnerable to sunburn and skin cancer if we move closer to the Equator, which receives higher ultraviolet radiation. There's a reason Northern Europeans have historically worn more clothing than other peoples for most of the year.

That really depends on what kind of northern European you are, I'd think. I for one have never had any problem moving about in even twenty degree weather with relatively little clothing (I am much hairier than the average individual though, and my father's side is a mix of Anglo-Saxon, Swiss and Swedish), and many of our surviving descriptions of early Germanic peoples describe them as moving through things as cold as snow (in the Alps) with little clothing or even nude.

Another point not to the main purpose of this discussion: A low level bad wizard in the Black Company Chronicles would have a field day taking on a LotR wizard. As much as I love Gandalf, I feel like the Limper on a bad day would have little trouble taking him out. That's not even getting into a real hoss like SoulCatcher.

As to the main issue - I think we read too much into the artwork of fantasy novels. The artists are notoriously lax in reading the stories and creating art to match. I think it's the first edition of Fellowship of the Ring that has a lion sleeping under a palm tree as the cover art.

 

[Steerpike]

Another point not to the main purpose of this discussion: A low level bad wizard in the Black Company Chronicles would have a field day taking on a LotR wizard. As much as I love Gandalf, I feel like the Limper on a bad day would have little trouble taking him out. That's not even getting into a real hoss like SoulCatcher.

Yes, you're right. And they were afraid of The Lady.

 

[Mindfire]

Another point not to the main purpose of this discussion: A low level bad wizard in the Black Company Chronicles would have a field day taking on a LotR wizard. As much as I love Gandalf, I feel like the Limper on a bad day would have little trouble taking him out. That's not even getting into a real hoss like SoulCatcher.

That... doesn't make any sense. Gandalf shrugged off a 1000+ foot fall and afterwards bested the Balrog in epic combat. He killed the DEVIL*. Are there no points to be awarded?


*Yes, I know Morgoth was technically the Satan of this universe until he withered away and ceded the role to Sauron, but the point stands.

 

[saellys]

Apropos of nothing and just out of curiosity, were there any other female wizards in The Black Company Chronicles, or was it just the one named after her gender?

 

[Steerpike]

That... doesn't make any sense. Gandalf shrugged off a 1000+ foot fall and afterwards bested the Balrog in epic combat. He killed the DEVIL*. Are there no points to be awarded?


*Yes, I know Morgoth was technically the Satan of this universe until he withered away and ceded the role to Sauron, but the point stands.

You obviously haven't read The Black Company.

 

[Steerpike]

Apropos of nothing and just out of curiosity, were there any other female wizards in The Black Company Chronicles, or was it just the one named after her gender?

Soulcatcher is female. In fact, she is The Lady's sister. These are nicknames, not their real names. All the characters in the book go by nicknames. For example, the main POV character in the first books is Croaker.

 

[Mindfire]

You obviously haven't read The Black Company.

Gandalf is nigh-omnipotent. The only reason he didn't do more was because the Valar kept him and the other wizards on a short leash.

 

[Steerpike]

Gandalf is nigh-omnipotent. The only reason he didn't do more was because the Valar kept him and the other wizards on a short leash.

Again, you haven't read the other books. You are arguing with only half the information.

 

[saellys]

Soulcatcher is female. In fact, she is The Lady's sister. These are nicknames, not their real names.

This is definitely going on my to-read list, then!

 

[Ankari]

Again, you haven't read the other books. You are arguing with only half the information.

What happens to Soulcatcher put me back in my chair. I read that section of the series and thought "What the hell?" I don't think Gandalf could have survived that.

 

[Mindfire]

What happens to Soulcatcher put me back in my chair. I read that section of the series and thought "What the hell?" I don't think Gandalf could have survived that.

But Gandalf serves Illuvatar, and Illuvatar is God. So if Illuvatar wills him to live, nothing can kill him. Even if his body is destroyed, he's not obliterated, he just becomes a disembodied spirit.

 

[Steerpike]

What happens to Soulcatcher put me back in my chair. I read that section of the series and thought "What the hell?" I don't think Gandalf could have survived that.

No. And it's nothing against Gandalf, a character I like. But the level of magic and power in The Black Company is just on an entirely different scale.

 

[Ankari]

But Gandalf serves Illuvatar, and Illuvatar is God. So if Illuvatar wills him to live, nothing can kill him. Even if his body is destroyed, he's not obliterated, he just becomes a disembodied spirit.

There is only one thing for you to do: read The Black Company

 

[Steerpike]

But Gandalf serves Illuvatar, and Illuvatar is God. So if Illuvatar wills him to live, nothing can kill him. Even if his body is destroyed, he's not obliterated, he just becomes a disembodied spirit.

Heh. Whatever. We're talking about the characters in the mortal world as they are presented in their stories. If you start including the intervention of gods, by divine will or otherwise, then you can make the same argument about characters in any fantasy with a pantheon. No, unless your gods are actual characters that are vulnerable, they don't enter into it. Might just as well say Sheldon from Big Bang Theory could defeat them all because Jesus might come down and save him, and even if he dies he remains a soul that ascends to heaven.

 

[Phietadix]

What does all this have to do with the Topic?