Follow-up discussion to "Female armour in fantasy books/games"

[Legendary Sidekick]

Just my two cents about this side conversation of Gandalf vs. Powerful Wizard from Something I Haven't Read:

I think most fans of anything will give the popular/likable character the benefit of the doubt in a battle between their guy/gal vs. anybody. But as writers, we really limit the power of our characters to reasonably match their opposition. As readers, we start making comparisons between characters from other worlds, but really, a high-powered character is only that powerful becuase his power level worked for that story (assuming the story isn't crap).

Where I'm going with this: Dr. Manhattan kills both wizards with a thought. On topic: his armor (a blue aura over his completely naked body) makes a chainmail bikini look modest.

 

[Mindfire]

Heh. Whatever. We're talking about the characters in the mortal world as they are presented in their stories. If you start including the intervention of gods, by divine will or otherwise, then you can make the same argument about characters in any fantasy with a pantheon. No, unless your gods are actual characters that are vulnerable, they don't enter into it. Might just as well say Sheldon from Big Bang Theory could defeat them all because Jesus might come down and save him, and even if he dies he remains a soul that ascends to heaven.

That's ludicrous! Sheldon would never make it to heaven.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Will St. Peter give him a medal declaring him The Nicest of the Damned?

 

[Reaver]

What does all this have to do with the Topic?

This does need to get back on topic. If you want to debate the "My wizard is better than your wizard" issue, start a new thread.

 

[Mindfire]

Steerpike started it.

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike started it.

Maybe some people hypersexualize Gandalf in their own minds.

Still, to get back on topic, I do think the predominance of hypersexual portrayals of females in games and visual media, particularly in fantasy, is a problem. This is not to mean that any and all depictions of the female form, scantily clad or sexually suggestive, are bad. It simply means that when the bulk of the depictions are centered around those things, it is indicative of something running through the culture in that industry, and it is something that is not welcoming to or friendly to women unless they are the objects of sexual desire.

 

[saellys]

Maybe some people hypersexualize Gandalf in their own minds.

Still, to get back on topic, I do think the predominance of hypersexual portrayals of females in games and visual media, particularly in fantasy, is a problem. This is not to mean that any and all depictions of the female form, scantily clad or sexually suggestive, are bad. It simply means that when the bulk of the depictions are centered around those things, it is indicative of something running through the culture in that industry, and it is something that is not welcoming to or friendly to women unless they are the objects of sexual desire.

Let me tell you, I sexualize the poo out of Gandalf.

So I have to thank you for introducing me to Gaming As Women, because it has replaced Mythic Scribes as my number one time-waster on the Internet! This post was particularly awesome and relevant to the topic making people sexual and sexy (two different things that can exist simultaneously, but often don't) in an equal opportunity fashion. I particularly love what Cangini says about avoiding the supermodel vacant stare--every person in her artwork has an identifiable, engaged expression on their face. Faces can be sexy! Who knew?

 

[Steerpike]

You are welcome, saellys. It's a very good blog, and I enjoy reading the articles there.

 

[Reaver]

Will St. Peter give him a medal declaring him The Nicest of the Damned?

Nope. I already won the last ten years and I'm a shoe-in to get this year's.

 

[Shockley]

Off-Topic: I now want a 'Wizard versus Wizard' thread. Someone should make someone so we should keep it going.

On-Topic: As a total side thought, one of the more effective armors has always been boiled leather with strips of metal strapped on (and that was the basic armor for a long, long time). You wouldn't need to do much to make that fully functional for a woman.

 

[Mindfire]

That link doesn't work...

 

[Jabrosky]

As a total side thought, one of the more effective armors has always been boiled leather with strips of metal strapped on (and that was the basic armor for a long, long time). You wouldn't need to do much to make that fully functional for a woman.

I wonder, exactly how tough would boiled leather be? I mean, what kind of weapons could pierce it?

 

[saellys]

Here's a thread about that. It's tougher than skin, at any rate.

 

[Shockley]

I wonder, exactly how tough would boiled leather be? I mean, what kind of weapons could pierce it?

Anything that pierces, but then again anything that pierces would also tear through chainmail so it's not that much of a step down. The main benefit of leather armor is that it wouldn't be as restrictive (if made properly) as metal armor and allows swifter movement. Not exactly that useful if you're in the middle of a shield wall and your enemies are lined up on the ancient form of a mechanized slaughtering block, but useful in broader, less controlled conflicts.

 

[JBryden88]

I was a fan of Tomb Raider until just now. I had no idea that CD would do something so sick. What's the purpose of that? There's absolutely no reason for it other than to be misogynistic and vile.

I feel the need to chime in here too late - they do not rape her. They kill her if you fail. You know... like any game in which you kill enemies or die.

 

[Sheriff Woody]

This hasn't been covered, actually. In my experience, it is extremely rare to find a female character portrayed with the same range of possibilities male characters enjoy. I can't name a female character as powerful as Gandalf, as attractive as Jaime Lannister with an equal level of proficiency and experience...

But isn't the beautiful ass-kicking heroine a cliche that writers are urged to avoid? Or at the very least, a cliche?

Jaime works as the beautiful male ass-kicker because he's not the hero. The cliche was turned on its head and he became a villain that we're meant to hate instead of the gorgeous and all-perfect knight we're accustomed to rooting for.

 

[Jabrosky]

But isn't the beautiful ass-kicking heroine a cliche that writers are urged to avoid? Or at the very least, a cliche?

Meh, I actually love that "cliche". I like ass-kicking characters, and I like beautiful women, so combining the two archetypes into one character makes a good deal in my view. Of course these heroines need some balancing and moderation to avoid Mary Sue-dom, as do their male equivalents, but I wouldn't avoid it completely.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Speaking in the broad sense, the problem with the beautiful ass-kicker is where she came from, not what she is. She started as the beautiful damsel, an essentially mindless construct who exists only for men to fight over her. In deference to modern political correctness, writers started making more female characters who could defend themselves, but they often had no more personality or motivation than the damsels of old. (Some folks also complain that the ass-kickers tend to wind up as hostages anyway, but I think that's not as clear-cut. Even a strong character can be overpowered, and there's nothing inherently wrong with giving the protagonist something personal to fight for.)

Anyway,I think Kim Possible stands as the perfect example of how this archetype can be repurposed.* She's strong, but she's also human, and she can be selfish, petty, and otherwise imperfect, and it's fun to watch her struggle against both dangerous foes and her own insecurities.

*Kim can also be interpreted as a female Ace. Which is even weirder, since Aces are almost never protagonists--they're rivals to protagonists who're more like Ron. This is directly addressed in the finale.

 

[Sheriff Woody]

...writers started making more female characters who could defend themselves, but they often had no more personality or motivation than the damsels of old.

Precisely. This is an example of treating the symptom and not the problem.

The beautiful ass-kicker needs their positive traits and skills balanced out with "negative" ones, much like Jaime Lannister.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

If you want an excellent example of a rounded female ass-kicker, check out Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion series. Paks starts out as a soldier and later becomes... well, more than that. I'm not actually a huge fan of those books, as I think the story structure is really weird and (in some places) boring, but the characters are very well-drawn, and Paks is someone who's an obvious forerunner of (e.g.) Brienne of Tarth.