Giving critique?

[Falunel]

I've always wanted to help out other writers by giving critique, but no matter how many times I try, my mind freezes up whenever I think of something to say that isn't grammatical. I'm good with copyediting, but it's not feasible to go through and point out every single grammar mistake, and I've learned the hard way that some people don't appreciate it. Other times, I'll see things that could be worded more effectively, but I can't just figure out how to explain why it should be reworded. >.>

So, anyone else have the same difficulties? Is there any advice that could be given regarding critiquing? Post it here. ^^

 

[At Dusk I Reign]

So, anyone else have the same difficulties? Is there any advice that could be given regarding critiquing? Post it here. ^^

I generally avoid critiquing anyone else's work, primarily because I'm not so sure of my own abilities that I feel confident to dish out advice. Opinions I'm happy to spread far and wide, but actual advice is more precious and I'm rather lacking in that regard. Were I to assume the mantle of some authors and presume myself omnipotent I might give it a try, but life has taught me that very few humans are ever worth listening to. I tend to just muddle through on my own, taking on board what other people have said but ignoring it if it doesn't work for me. Not the the ideal solution, but near enough to perfection.

 

[Donny Bruso]

I tend to not critique grammar when I read someone else's work, unless is it something I am 100% written in stone sure of. Spelling I will do, word substitutions, and general flow of sentences, but I tend to stay away from punctuation because it's such a headache and more detail than they are likely to want. They are mostly interested in my opinion of their story. Unless their punctuation is so bad, such as commas every other word, that it interferes with my reading, I leave it alone.

I look more at characters, do they perform to the standards that the author has set for them? Are there huge, gaping plot holes I could drive a herd of elephants through(Note to self, purchase new 'deluxe model' elephants for plot hole testing)? How is their general spelling and grammar? Is it good enough that it doesn't pull me out of the story? Is the story good enough to suck me in and I forget to read with my editorial eye? (I have that problem critiquing Meg's work)

Grammar can be fine tuned later, once the story is polished up, so I focus on that. And of course I always give constructive criticism. No matter how bad the writing and story are, if you can't find anything to compliment the author on, don't send them a review. We authors are vain and protective of our children, and we want to hear how wonderful and intelligent they are; even if they are sitting on the floor in their own filth, cross-eyed and chewing on their own foot.

 

[Ophiucha]

I tell people before they hand me their papers, "do you see this white? you won't when you get this back." I know I can't be general, and honestly I am going to be very blunt and will point out every misplaced comma and awkward sentence. I am the sort of person who keeps notes for my critiques to ensure continuity, and I have no qualms about being brutal if it comes down to it. A lot of people don't ask me to read their works because of that, but some people practically rely on it.

Anyway, as for how I critique: red pens and post-it notes. I buy post-it notes in bulk, and I go through them fast if I'm reading over a full manuscript. I use those to give suggestions on rewording a sentence, and the red pens for things that are just inaccurate. I'll use the page margins for smaller issues, ones that don't need a full sentence or two's response. If I am editing something online, I tend to use a lot striked out text (in red next to it, the correct usage) and I use green text in parentheses to give commentary and suggestions). On average, if you give me a 100 page document to read, the commentary alone will push it into the 160 page territory.

Obviously, if it is just something wrong, I give the correct usage beside it and move on. Unless it is something nitpicky. Alright vs. all right or something like that. I tend to include a note about it, say why I think you'd be better off using my suggestion, then leave it to the author. My comments and suggestions are often similar, although they may include full rewrites, suggested word changes, etc. For instance, if you submit these sentences: "She started walking, book bag in hand, thinking about him. I have many other guy friends, she thought hopelessly." I will include the following: "The first sentence is grammatically awkward. The two commas act as a comma slice, and the sentence reads like "She started walking thinking about him," and should include a word to separate those verbs. Consider 'while'. The thought does not stand out from the text, and should be italicized or written in small quotes, such as 'these'."

Of course, I also include story and character notes as well (I will critique worldbuilding consistency, character development - anything and everything, really), and the occasional "lol" or "radical!" on the margins, if something is worth the minor praise. Those tend to warrant separate asides entirely, though. I often write an "end note" (about 10 pages) of more general "over the story, I was always confused about X" or "character Y's side story was never resolved") and such.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

Oh yeah.. Though I'm far from scared to voice my opinion on things.. I'm always told I'm "too honest" and tend to hurt people's feelings.. I'd rather the truth be known than them find out later and it hurt worse... LOL... And this motto applies to playing the role of critic too... If you ask me to look over what you've written.. I will point out every mistake you made, every point that could be made better... Things that aren't needed.. I expect the same from those I ask to go over my work.. I've I show you something... That means I trust you enough to point out my flaws. After all it's better a friend see it and correct it then you bomb because your readers think you can't spell.. No?

 

[Ophiucha]

Yeah, that is my train of thought. But there are many people who get that sort of critique back and say you are being too mean and that it's just a few extra commas and a couple of misspelled words or whatever the problem was. :/ It's like, do you want me to tell you what you can improve on, or do you want me to tell you that you're the next J.K. Rowling?

 

[Mdnight Falling]

Yeah, that is my train of thought. But there are many people who get that sort of critique back and say you are being too mean and that it's just a few extra commas and a couple of misspelled words or whatever the problem was. :/ It's like, do you want me to tell you what you can improve on, or do you want me to tell you that you're the next J.K. Rowling?

LOL!!!! exactly!!!! I have taken harsh criticism from people over the years and have smiled and nodded and said thank you LOL but let me turn around and say nicely "There should be a comma here" or "This really should be a new paragraph" and suddenly I find myself being yelled at o.o

 

[Mdnight Rising]

I would rather get peoples opinions on things i write then nothign at all even if they are harsh or even considered bad...... at least then i have a general idea on what to work on

 

[Philip Overby]

I don't think grammar, punctuation, and all that should be what anyone critiques if they're reading a story for someone. You should look at the content or how you felt about the story. If the story is littered with bad spelling and grammar then, yeah, mention it. If you can't read it because of that fact, then that is a whole separate issue.

I always look at content. I don't feel like giving grammar lessons. That's my day job...

I recently critiqued my friend's sister's story she wanted me to read. I read it carefully and gave her some honest feedback about it. She even told me, "Give me honest feedback." I spent over an hour writing out my detailed thoughts about her story and she never wrote me back to say "Thanks" or "Whatever" or anything. That annoyed me.

I also traded stories with another woman once and gave her some good feedback (that she liked) and she never responded to the story I sent her. It was a one-sided deal. That also really annoyed me.

If someone wants real, honest, detailed criticism from me, I'll give it to them. But if they cry and say I'm a big meanie, then they have no business writing anyway.

 

[Ophiucha]

I tend to weigh the grammar and story criticism out by which has more problems. If their grammar and spelling is relatively decent, save for some stylistic oddities, I'll probably only point it out once and otherwise never mention it unless something is just an obvious typo worth a good "lol" in the margin. If their grammar and spelling is atrocious, I'll focus more heavily on it. As it is, most people's grammar and spelling is atrocious. To be equally fair, though, if there story is a cliché ridden mess, then I'll focus far more heavily on that then misplaced commas. Some might call that 'accentuating the negative', but I call it necessary.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

I don't think grammar, punctuation, and all that should be what anyone critiques if they're reading a story for someone. You should look at the content or how you felt about the story. If the story is littered with bad spelling and grammar then, yeah, mention it. If you can't read it because of that fact, then that is a whole separate issue.

I always look at content. I don't feel like giving grammar lessons. That's my day job...

I do the whole deal. I suffer from mild ocd LOL I must correct anything I see wrong and most of the time that would be spelling. Punctuation I'm not so good at but I can be a walking dictionary if I have to be LOL. I of course look at content too after all why READ if you aren't going to pay attention to what it is you're reading I'll gladly tell you if I think what you've shown me if something I'd go out and read on my own or not...

 

[Ravana]

Advice? Yeah: be honest. Otherwise, you're being useless. And be specific; otherwise, ditto.

I'd like to make a distinction that appears to be getting overlooked by some. Making corrections to grammar and punctuation is not "critiquing"; it's copyediting. That doesn't mean you shouldn't comment on it, particularly if the errors hinder the story–and I've seen plenty of cases where the grammar was so confused I couldn't tell what the author intended me to understand. You should not, however, get hung up on it, when asked for "feedback"; it shouldn't even be your primary focus. Note it in passing and move on. If the author wants you to focus on this, he can always ask. (Or pay someone. My rates are good.…)

My preferred method of offering input is Socratic: I pose questions, to call attention to areas I think require it and to suggest alternatives or opportunities for the author to expand upon. If I flat-out think something doesn't work, I'll say as much; if I think something does work, I'll say that too–and telling a writer what you think he's doing right is at least as important as telling him what you think he's doing wrong.

A few other points:
(1) As mentioned previously: be specific in your feedback. "This is great!" is every bit as uninformative as "This sucks!" Without reasons why, neither provides any guidance to the author.
(2) If the author doesn't agree with your input, don't get offended. It's his story.
(3) If you're an author, don't get offended when you ask for feedback and actually receive it. If all you're looking for is approval, go enroll yourself in day care. (In my experience, what I am when I ask for feedback and receive it is surprised–I couldn't believe how few people were willing to respond to my requests when I started making them.)
(4) Finally: you should want feedback, positive and negative. I mean, seriously–you don't want to hear whether someone thinks some part of your story needs improving, but you're planning on trying to publish it? Or were you just writing it for yourself? If so, why were you asking for feedback? And if not… hello, author: meet audience. Might as well get their responses while they can still do you some good.

And, yes, I grade in red pen. I usually have to issue a warning prior to handing back the first paper of the term–that the ones with the most written on them are, generally, the best papers, not the worst: they're the ones that have engaged my mind, made me want to strike up conversations with the authors. After all, it only takes me two letters to mark a sentence fragment; it takes a lot more space to compliment someone's insight–never mind complement it.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

I like how you think Ravana.. Perhaps I'll ask you to look over the manuscript when I finally get it done. Since I've joined, you've been straight forward and to the point in every post you've made. Although dear god you can write LOL, you hardly ever make me angry or upset even when you're being your hardest in giving an opinion on something... I like ya more and more everyday >^.^<

 

[Chilari]

I'm with Ravana on that, though it is a while since I have critiqued anything to be honest. I prefer to be honest, though am careful, on second read-through, to pick out things which are good to compliment because I know from having my own stuff critiqued that just getting "you need to change this" or "this doesn't work" without "this works well" etc is very disheartening. Even then I sometimes don't hear back from the author, which I just think is rude, but worse is when they post a response along the lines of telling me I'm wrong because "it's meant to be like that". About a year ago someone posted their first chapter on another forum I frequent, asking for honest feedback. So I have some. At one point a character screams, and it isn't clear why this is immediately, but then it emerges that the scream was because her child is dead. I suggested that "scream" doesn't really convey the emotions that one would feel in that situation, especially since there are other reasons a character might scream at that point, and suggested a few other words which might clear up the confusion. The author came back and basically blamed me for reading it wrong, not considering that he might be writing it wrong if it confuses me. So now I'm much more wary when I review stuff because people do act like you've gone out of your way to offend them when replying to feedback requests if they really only wanted ego stroking.

 

[Ravana]

I like how you think Ravana.. Perhaps I'll ask you to look over the manuscript when I finally get it done. Since I've joined, you've been straight forward and to the point in every post you've made. Although dear god you can write LOL, you hardly ever make me angry or upset even when you're being your hardest in giving an opinion on something... I like ya more and more everyday >^.^<

Thank you very much. And, yeah, I do tend toward lengthy posts. As I note under "bad habits," it comes from trying to say everything I think of at once. And, yes, I can certainly be opinionated–I do try to avoid stepping on toes, or shutting people down, though it may not always seem like it–but I always avoid expressing strong opinions unless I can also express the reasons that underlie them. Perhaps that's why it "works," in not offending (you, at least: I hope I haven't offended anyone else): you can at least see why I think something, even if you don't agree with me… and that can go a long way.

Which is not off-topic: a critique will be that much more valuable, and that much less "confrontational," if you can back up what you're saying, with examples, alternatives, etc.

Chilari: right. You may have "read something wrong"–but if it wasn't completely clear from the way it was written (and you'd simply overlooked something), then the author may not be conveying what he intended, or what he thought he said. This is one reason why outside review is vital: you always make the worst reader for your own work (for these purposes), because you know what you meant to say–and as a result may mentally fill in things that are not actually present in the text as you review it. The correct response for that author should have been to solicit additional reactions to see if anyone else had the same difficulty, and maybe, maybe to say "I don't see it that way; here's why…" to see if it makes sense to you on a consequent reading. In general I don't encourage any response to a critique other than a "Thank you"–and, yes, not giving one is rude–though if you, the author, truly believe that what you have is what you want, it may be worth talking through, at least to the point where you understand why you and your reader differ; after that, you have to make your own decision as to what's best for your manuscript.

 

[Falunel]

Thanks for your insight, guys. I suppose my main problem is that I'm not accustomed to reading with a critical eye when it comes to plot/character/purpose. Whenever I come across a plot hole in someone else's story, my mind either overlooks it, decides it will be explained later and forgets it, or comes up with an explanation on its own and moves on. Also, I tend to be overnervous when giving critique, especially to people I don't know. Experience with noobs who want their ego stoked has left a bad taste, and I've grown accustomed to beating around the bush instead of being direct.

I like the idea of the Socratic method. Just telling someone that there's something wrong with the plot feels vague when it comes to giving advice on actually fixing the problem, and telling someone how to fix it... well, it'd feel like writing the story for them. However, asking questions pushes them to think on their own about filling in the holes.
Also, I like Ophiucha's method of online edits. I'll have to keep that in mind next time someone asks me to copyedit.

 

[Telcontar]

It is tough. I'm of the opinion that a serious writer needs to both know how to critique and how to receive critiques.

The first thing to know, and remember, and keep in mind always is that our hobby (or job, if you are so lucky) is entirely subjective. Beyond the basic rules of the language you happen to be writing in, creative writing has no rules. Even those basic rules can be played with if you're good enough. Any criticism has to be taken with a mind to who it comes from.

Central to that same point is that the author needs to be able to be objective (insofar as it is possible) about their own work. You have to be able to step back and consider alternative views coldly. This is probably the hardest thing to do. For one because most people have a hard time being objective at the best of times. For two because, again, all writing is subjective. For three, because you wrote it because you LOVE IT.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

Exactly.. which is why I've personally rewritten my own book at least 17 times in the last 23 years. I'm never happy with it when it's finished and since I've had no one else to read it, I've had no choice but to be my own critic.. and let me tell you... Once you get into the flow of it.. You'll never find a harsher critic then yourself >.<

 

[Ophiucha]

I have no real interest in showing a work to others until it has passed under my own scrutinization (is that a word?), so I get that. Of course, not quite 23 years. I'm not even that old. I've rewritten my book seven times in the past three years, and it is nearly indistinguishable from the earliest draft. That said, aside from perfecting some details of style, I have settled on the details of story, character, theme, worldbuilding, etc., so now it's just a matter of getting a good draft, editing heavily, and getting a few friends (who I know will tell me if something blows) to read it. I'm anticipating having it "done" by this time next year, and then arguing over another few drafts with publishers and whatnot.

I will admit, though, for as harsh a critic as I can be, there are some people I have difficulty being as brutal as I tend to be towards. My husband and my best friend, namely. As it is, my husband won't show me his works until he's done some thorough editing himself, but my best friend? Yeah... she's not a bad writer, but she's got a few years to go. I tend to just distance myself from her while I'm editing and critiquing a piece of hers, otherwise I'd have a bit of trouble addressing the issues nicely.

 

[Mdnight Falling]

LMAO! I'm 30 I've been writing the same story since I was roughy 7 so yeah 23 years x.x and every time I get near completed with it I decide to look it over and it ends up in the trash.. that's what happens when none ofy our friends or family reads or is interested in fantasy stuff they won't touch it LOL So I've had to do it all myself.. Now hopefully Bry will look over my stuff.. when I ever find a converter -.- and will tell me if it's publishable or not LOL