Incest Romance

[Muan142]

I’ve got a story I’m working on where a brother-sister romance features prominently. It’s not presently my intention to actually consummate it, but a lot of the scenes derive tension by the unspoken subtexts. Or rather I could say it’s like figure skating on top of a really thin sheet of ice. The idea was to have a relationship that is extremely complicated and hard to grasp and which invites investigation.

To some extent of course I get I’ll have to accept it’s a niche story but is there anything we can do to soften it for people and make it more palatable? The usual method is to work at it slowly and build up sympathy for the characters before the romance starts, but my idea here was that everyone thinks the romance between these two has started already when really it hasn’t, and it’s others trying to force them apart that actually gets it started. So these two need to look extraordinarily suspiciously close while being innocent and almost unable to comprehend why others see them that way. Thier friends call them the “queer couple” or the “cringe couple”, and I use the term friends loosely. So I can’t exactly work up to it slowly and slyly since everyone around them needs to be suspicious.

 

[Finchbearer]

Perhaps I can give a somewhat objective answer here given that I’m an only child.

There are some famous (or infamous) brother-sister incestuous relationships depicted in popular fiction, namely Edward and Esther in Jane Austen’s Sanditon, although they were step-siblings, and Austen never actually explicitly wrote that they were in fact incestuous, just an odd pair that lived together alone in a large dilapidated Manor House…and then you have probably the more well known fictional relationship between Cersei and Jaime, who produced Joffrey as a result from A Song of Ice and Fire series.

The only thing with these relationships is that the authors created characters who the readers love-to-hate, and so I’m not convinced you’ll be able to create a tender brother-sister relationship turned romance and have the readers root for them as a couple, if that is what you’re intending here. Obviously in fiction we can explore dark and sometimes taboo themes and call it literary, à la Lolita, but that in itself is a walk on thin ice, and a skill.

I think if I were to read a storyline like that I would be asking why? What purpose does it serve? Why did the author choose to write that? What is it serving to the plot / story at large? Why should I be invested in them when they are doing something that is societally wrong?

 

[Muan142]

Perhaps I can give a somewhat objective answer here given that I’m an only child.

There are some famous (or infamous) brother-sister incestuous relationships depicted in popular fiction, namely Edward and Esther in Jane Austen’s Sanditon, although they were step-siblings, and Austen never actually explicitly wrote that they were in fact incestuous, just an odd pair that lived together alone in a large dilapidated Manor House…and then you have probably the more well known fictional relationship between Cersei and Jaime, who produced Joffrey as a result from A Song of Ice and Fire series.

The only thing with these relationships is that the authors created characters who the readers love-to-hate, and so I’m not convinced you’ll be able to create a tender brother-sister relationship turned romance and have the readers root for them as a couple, if that is what you’re intending here. Obviously in fiction we can explore dark and sometimes taboo themes and call it literary, à la Lolita, but that in itself is a walk on thin ice, and a skill.

I think if I were to read a storyline like that I would be asking why? What purpose does it serve? Why did the author choose to write that? What is it serving to the plot / story at large? Why should I be invested in them when they are doing something that is societally wrong?

I think you’re kind of jumping the gun here, but you’re asking good questions. For a long time I’ve been fascinated by this pair of characters I invented, a young man who is a paragon of virtue and wisdom but who happens to fall in love with his artistic trickster of a sister. Sort of a play on Kierkegaard’s Either/Or. The young man has no argument for incest, all he has is his feelings, which as you can imagine he keeps a tight lid on until circumstances force his hand and to prevent him from being separated from her, he seeks the aid of the Klonne, a sort of Mephistopheles figure. The Klonne promises to sort the problem out for him but then makes it much much worse. The rest of the plot involves the pair trying to get out of the situation the Klonne has put them in while the Klonne tries to tempt them into accepting more of her help. You can think of the Klonne as a sort of embodiment of incest or lust, though I see her as more of a specter of moral nihilism. The brother is a moral absolutist and his sister is a moral relativist.

I picked incest because it’s something nearly universally condemned but which in a consensual case is a victimless crime. We can say we’re worried about inbreeding but that’s like saying disease is why you don’t eat pork. You’re trying to rationalize it scientifically when the issue is symbolic. Pigs taste a lot like people and have simmilar organs. To some cultures it’s too close to cannibalism. Incest is the practice of the gods. Humans doing it is to declare themselves gods, hence why god-kings tend to be inbred (and Hapsburgs). It is to say, “No family is worthy to join with my family.” The siblings’ desire for one another is also their desire to be gods, and their contempt for everyone around them, which though they conceal it from themselves is revealed in later interactions. As in they see thier ambition mirrored in another character who literally tries to become a god and the Klonne trying to tempt them with immorality. But the principle failure of both main characters is pride, an all too common and insidious failing and fun to symbolically explore and confront.

As to why be invested in someone who does something socially forbidden, doesn’t everyone love Batman? But no one thinks it would be okay to imitate him. It’s the Byronnic hero thing. These characters know what they want and are passionate about getting it but somewhat questionable in thier means. We like to read about characters who are passionate and motivated and we find it interesting when they are willing to oppose society for it. But in this case most of the story is a balance between redemption and temptation and seeking a way out of the moral trap of absolutism, relativism, and nihilism. Not to mention I at least love charactee we s who know the right thing to do but can’t bring themselves to do it and struggle with it a lot. King Claudius in Hamlet really gets me and my heroes in here bring me to tears over it.

 

[The Dark One]

What if in your milieu incest was a revered thing, similar to certain dynasties of ancient Egypt?

It would totally change the story but you'd still have the misgivings of modern readers to deal with.

 

[Finchbearer]

If you’re exploring various theories and philosophy within the storytelling then that’s one thing, but I think you will inevitably risk walking the thin line between self gratification and something that makes people go ‘ew’. You’re going to be up against the rebuttals of potential readers and readers views alike no matter what you write, never mind the taboo nature of the subject.

 

[Muan142]

What if in your milieu incest was a revered thing, similar to certain dynasties of ancient Egypt?

It would totally change the story but you'd still have the misgivings of modern readers to deal with.

I had something like that in there originally but I decided it was too contrived and nobody would buy it. It could work for certain aspects of the story but it makes our hero look like a cultural relativist and so kind of muddies the moral waters. Anyway the original version was that the hero who founded thier city was a pair of twins who some say were lovers and some say they were the incarnation of a god. So they had stories where incest was okay and twins were to be revealed but at the same time most people were uncomfortable with it. But yeah it feels contrived to me.

 

[Muan142]

If you’re exploring various theories and philosophy within the storytelling then that’s one thing, but I think you will inevitably risk walking the thin line between self gratification and something that makes people go ‘ew’. You’re going to be up against the rebuttals of potential readers and readers views alike no matter what you write, never mind the taboo nature of the subject.

I’m completely sure most people will go ew. I don’t know what you mean by self gratification but what I’m asking is is there some way to lessen the blow and make it easier for people. Not everyone needs to like it but I don’t want to dissuade readers of it’s not necessary. All the same for the effect I’m going for it is necessary that readers feel uncomfortable discussing the story, especially if they like it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I’ve got a story I’m working on where a brother-sister romance features prominently. It’s not presently my intention to actually consummate it, but a lot of the scenes derive tension by the unspoken subtexts. Or rather I could say it’s like figure skating on top of a really thin sheet of ice. The idea was to have a relationship that is extremely complicated and hard to grasp and which invites investigation.

To some extent of course I get I’ll have to accept it’s a niche story but is there anything we can do to soften it for people and make it more palatable? The usual method is to work at it slowly and build up sympathy for the characters before the romance starts, but my idea here was that everyone thinks the romance between these two has started already when really it hasn’t, and it’s others trying to force them apart that actually gets it started. So these two need to look extraordinarily suspiciously close while being innocent and almost unable to comprehend why others see them that way. Thier friends call them the “queer couple” or the “cringe couple”, and I use the term friends loosely. So I can’t exactly work up to it slowly and slyly since everyone around them needs to be suspicious.

No, it's like figure skating on a thin layer of ice over a chasm. If you fall, you'll fall hard.

You'll also find that there are only maybe two or three platforms that condone relationships like this (I'm avoiding typing it because the site owner says it and others can have an impact on who searches and finds us.) and all the rest will chuck your book offline and ban it. Maybe ban you, if it's bad enough. And yes, some do slip through. I have a friend who writes PNR, Reverse Harem, and Mafia Romance. One of her first offerings has twins in a three-way. It gets banned regularly - I'm sure someone at Amazon has her name on a sticky note - and she puts it back up and the whole thing resets. It's actually pretty funny. BUt, it should be noted, at no point in this scene do the twins touch each other, which I think is the reason why it goes back up. It's also included in an omnibus, which is rarely pulled for content. It's huge. I'm pretty sure the someone with a sticky note is afraid of it and just passes it down the line.

Anyway, long, meandering answer shortened for the judges: Be careful and pay very close attention to the markets you want to publish in - or your publisher, no judging - because if the relationship between these twins steps even a toe over the line, it can end your career.

Tanya Huff is a great example of how to do this right.

This is the second book in her Blood series and it features twin werewolves. I recommend the whole series, but at least read one because Huff is about as enamored of exposition as I am.
Amazon.com

Twin assassins in a really great High Fantasy series.
Amazon.com

Background reading for this one includes all of the Blood series and one before this. So, just have fun and pick up tips. Huff is a brilliant genre writer and someone I learn a lot from.
Amazon.com

Good luck and godspeed!

 

[pmmg]

Perhaps I can give a somewhat objective answer here given that I’m an only child.

There are some famous (or infamous) brother-sister incestuous relationships depicted in popular fiction, namely Edward and Esther in Jane Austen’s Sanditon, although they were step-siblings, and Austen never actually explicitly wrote that they were in fact incestuous, just an odd pair that lived together alone in a large dilapidated Manor House…and then you have probably the more well known fictional relationship between Cersei and Jaime, who produced Joffrey as a result from A Song of Ice and Fire series.

The only thing with these relationships is that the authors created characters who the readers love-to-hate, and so I’m not convinced you’ll be able to create a tender brother-sister relationship turned romance and have the readers root for them as a couple, if that is what you’re intending here. Obviously in fiction we can explore dark and sometimes taboo themes and call it literary, à la Lolita, but that in itself is a walk on thin ice, and a skill.

I think if I were to read a storyline like that I would be asking why? What purpose does it serve? Why did the author choose to write that? What is it serving to the plot / story at large? Why should I be invested in them when they are doing something that is societally wrong?

I would repeat this post almost word for word if it was not already posted.

I am questioning what it is you are hoping to do with this story?

To some extent of course I get I’ll have to accept it’s a niche story but is there anything we can do to soften it for people and make it more palatable?

The easiest way is to not have it.

However, we cannot pretend that this has not been more acceptable in some of our history in some of our world cultures, or that there have not been portrayals of it in fiction that did not turn away the readers. How can you make it more palatable? Make it less something we are advocating for, and more just something that happens in the story...and show realistic reactions and repercussions to it.

To be honest, I am not sure why I would want to soften if for people....there is something that feels underhanded in the presentation of this--like help me find a way to fool people so they will read it. I do not wish to help with that.

 

[Muan142]

I would repeat this post almost word for word if it was not already posted.

I am questioning what it is you are hoping to do with this story?





The easiest way is to not have it.

However, we cannot pretend that this has not been more acceptable in some of our history in some of our world cultures, or that there have not been portrayals of it in fiction that did not turn away the readers. How can you make it more palatable? Make it less something we are advocating for, and more just something that happens in the story...and show realistic reactions and repercussions to it.

To be honest, I am not sure why I would want to soften if for people....there is something that feels underhanded in the presentation of this--like help me find a way to fool people so they will read it. I do not wish to help with that.

I’m not here to answer your questions though I already did if you’d read above. I’m asking for advice on how to soften the issue

 

[evolution_rex]

Are we talking incest like in A Song of Ice and Fire, to critique monarchy and for realism, or are we talking an incest romance that the readers are supposed to root for? Either way, softening the issue does nothing. If we’re not supposed to root for the romance, then going all in will make the reader disgusted which is what you want. If for whatever reason you want pro-incest romance, then no one who isn’t pro-incest will want to read it. By ‘softening’ it you’re only using storytelling trickery to manipulate the reader to support something they wouldn’t normally, which is a skillful exercise in itself but done for awful reasons in this context.

Basically if you’re writing fetish content then don’t target people who don’t wanna read it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I’m not here to answer your questions though I already did if you’d read above. I’m asking for advice on how to soften the issue

Okay, you need to cool your jets. This isn't that kind of forum. We're here to help each other and that's what we do. There are no stupid questions except the ones not asked.

 

[skip.knox]

Lovers being forced apart and coming together anyway is timeless. I don't really see the need to add incest to the mix. Still less do I see a reason to soft-pedal that once the authorial decision is made to have it in the first place.

 

[Mad Swede]

OK. Like skip.knox I'm not sure I understand why you would even want to have that relationship in this mix. What you're portraying is a couple being almost forced into a socially forbidden relationship and then having to deal with the consequences. You don't need that specific relationship as an excuse to write novel exploring these things. Much as I hate to write this, when you say that you want to soften the relationship and make it more palatable you're effectively saying to me that your portrayal of that sort of relationship will be positive. As A. E. Lowan writes, portraying an illegal relationship like that in a way which can be seens as sympathetic and/or positive is likely to get you and your novel banned from most places. That alone makes your chances of finding a publisher remote, in reality zero. Nabokov may have got away with it when Lolita was finally published but even now, more than 60 years later, his novel is still very controversial. And whilst Lolita may be in print, that doesn't mean you will be.

 

[Muan142]

OK. Like skip.knox I'm not sure I understand why you would even want to have that relationship in this mix. What you're portraying is a couple being almost forced into a socially forbidden relationship and then having to deal with the consequences. You don't need that specific relationship as an excuse to write novel exploring these things. Much as I hate to write this, when you say that you want to soften the relationship and make it more palatable you're effectively saying to me that your portrayal of that sort of relationship will be positive. As A. E. Lowan writes, portraying an illegal relationship like that in a way which can be seens as sympathetic and/or positive is likely to get you and your novel banned from most places. That alone makes your chances of finding a publisher remote, in reality zero. Nabokov may have got away with it when Lolita was finally published but even now, more than 60 years later, his novel is still very controversial. And whilst Lolita may be in print, that doesn't mean you will be.

Your advice it seems to me is, don’t publish it. My question was, how do we soften the topic to the reader. This does not seem relevant to the topic. I was not asking for publishing advice, but writing advice. Perhaps the two are inseparable in your mind but logically I think you will find they are quite distinct.

Lovers being forced apart and coming together anyway is timeless. I don't really see the need to add incest to the mix. Still less do I see a reason to soft-pedal that once the authorial decision is made to have it in the first place.

So don’t soften it? The point isn’t forcing them apart. It’s to make them and the reader experience guilt and sin. The wound in the world. A problem you urgently don’t want to solve no matter how rewarding the solution might be. But if your advice is, just wallow in it, I can see the logic in that. Might as well fly your freak flag high, right?

 

[CupofJoe]

If this is an non-moveable part of the story...
Then the only way I can think of getting people to buy into it and not just be grossed out, is to have the two be brought up as Brother and Sister, with their parentage hidden or confused in some way.
It will be icky enough to have a relationship with someone that is treated as your sibling [like you might have in a modern blended family], but to then have the reveal of some deep secret that makes them related.
I'm almost going to Star Wars here. In the original film we don't know Luke and Leia parentage so a relationship between them is seen as possible. when we find out they are related it reframes what we know.

 

[JBCrowson]

I’ve got a story I’m working on where a brother-sister romance features prominently. It’s not presently my intention to actually consummate it, but a lot of the scenes derive tension by the unspoken subtexts. Or rather I could say it’s like figure skating on top of a really thin sheet of ice. The idea was to have a relationship that is extremely complicated and hard to grasp and which invites investigation.

To some extent of course I get I’ll have to accept it’s a niche story but is there anything we can do to soften it for people and make it more palatable? The usual method is to work at it slowly and build up sympathy for the characters before the romance starts, but my idea here was that everyone thinks the romance between these two has started already when really it hasn’t, and it’s others trying to force them apart that actually gets it started. So these two need to look extraordinarily suspiciously close while being innocent and almost unable to comprehend why others see them that way. Thier friends call them the “queer couple” or the “cringe couple”, and I use the term friends loosely. So I can’t exactly work up to it slowly and slyly since everyone around them needs to be suspicious.

Luke and Leia in Star wars. Worked well, no sex, evolved into a different type of relationship over time.

 

[skip.knox]

>how do we soften the topic to the reader
We don't. You have set this challenge for yourself, so it's on you to overcome it. If you want the reader to experience the guilt and sin, then I cannot see the point of trying to soften anything.

Perhaps some of the suggestions and reactions offered here can provide some inspiration. Inspiration comes from others, but execution comes from the artist.

 

[Mad Swede]

Your advice it seems to me is, don’t publish it. My question was, how do we soften the topic to the reader. This does not seem relevant to the topic. I was not asking for publishing advice, but writing advice. Perhaps the two are inseparable in your mind but logically I think you will find they are quite distinct.

Perhaps you should read my reply again.

If we step this right back, there are a series of question you as the author have to ask yourself before you get into the details of how you portray the relationship.

First, what is the focus of the story? Is it two people overcoming all the obstacles caused by a socially forbidden relationship? If so, then I would suggest that you write the story without ever naming or mentioning what it is in the relationship that is socially unacceptable. This, of course, means you probably also can't mention any blood relationship between the protagonists in this draft. I wouldn't describe any intimate scenes at this stage either. The reason I suggest this approach is that this allows you to see if you have the story arcs, character interactions and characterisation needed to support a good story.

If after this you judge that your story holds up the next step is to ask what it is about the relationship that makes it socially unacceptable. This is when you ask yourself the potentially very uncomfortable question about why you want to portray a particular type of relationship. You must also ask yourself if you are prepared to deal with the potential personal consequences of portraying a given relationship. That is especially true if you want to portray a socially unacceptable and generally illegal relationship in a positive light. The answers to those questions will help you to decide what sort of socially unacceptable relationship you are prepared to portray. That in turn then helps you define some of your setting, which can itself lead to more development of the story arcs and characterisation.

If you are determined to portray a given type of socially unacceptable and illegal relationship in a positive light then, as skip.knox writes, you probably should not try to soften the portrayal. But then you must also accept the consequences - and to illustrate what I mean by that I will simply name Marion Zimmer Bradley.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I haven't re-read the whole topic, so someone might already have mentioned this. But, in general I think there are 2 things you can do to influence the readers opinion about this (and about pretty much anything else in your novel for that matter):

The first is how your characters react to it. People experience your story and your story world through your characters. If your characters accept something as normal, your readers will too. If they're disgusted by something, then your readers will be too. And so on. Your characters and their reactions are the strongest tool you have to influence your readers.

The second thing is inevitability. Set it up in such a way that it follows logically from the story and the setting. Take readers along the journey, and while they might disagree with the outcome, they'll accept it as the natural conclusion of the tale.

One example I can think of which shows both these things is Flowers in the Attic, by Virginia Andrews. It's a story containing incest (even as one of the main focus points of the story). It's also a story shown through the protagonists eyes taking the reader along to an inevitable conclusion. It has also sold 4.5 million copies (if Google is telling the truth...).