Mythic Scribes Writing Jargon?

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, noticed a while back Ches disappeared, didn't know anything was deleted. No idea what's up there.

It was Dem (see below). But speaking of Chessie, what happened? When I searched for Waypoint Writer, I noticed it looks like her account was deleted.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The notion of lures goes back to at least a month before. I found Helio discussing the idea on 5/24 in the showcase, and from the description, it looks like it had been discussed previously. But it's a clear differentiation between hook and lure. For some reason I think Helio and I got into a chat at some point, but I'm not even sure where my keys are right now, so who the hell knows ;P I'm not finding the origin beyond that, if there is one.

And yes, the prologue launched the different types of hooks questions, I referred to a soft hook, and things went goofy from there, LOL.

I remember introducing it here: https://mythicscribes.com/forums/wr...s-first-five-pages-post268042.html#post268042

But that discussion wasn't long after you posted your book's prologue in Showcase, I think. I remembered saying I wasn't quite hooked by it...then gave a description of a fish intrigued by it, keeping it in view, heh. During the conversation linked above, I coined "lure," still remembering my feeling during that conversation about your prologue. Maybe the term was used before and something in my brain recalled it, I don't know. I do think that previous discussions before all this may have circled the idea of "mini hooks," or maybe it was your mention of mini hooks that prompted my brain to think "lure."

Edit: So I could see the entry following the format Lures (aka Mini-Hooks) or else Mini-Hooks (aka Lures) heh.

Maybe some of the others, like filtering, could have various aka's.

But all of this combined with the "codification" and idiosyncracy issue leaves me wondering if the guide to the jargon ought to be cast as a Translation Guide for Understanding the Inmates sort of thing, heh.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I really liked how the term promise was used in the context of establishing reader expectations. I don't know if it's actually used by anyone else, but it's helped me a lot with the work I'm doing on my current WiP.

I'd say promise in this context is the promise between the story and the reader about what the story will deliver if the reader keeps on reading. Makes sense?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Another good addition, IMO, would traditional prologue and chapter prologue. There are at least two major styles of prologue and it wouldn't be the worst to have that jotted down.

Another item that gets tossed around here, my editor brought my attention to this on some email I wrote... is that "prose" when used to discuss a writer's work tends to indicate their writing style, word choice, etc, as separate from the quality of the story told. Delineating it from the word "writing" which is typically taken more inclusively. But I'm not sure how prevalent that is, might be just a couple people and myself, LOL. An example would be:

I like Rothfuss' prose, but his story-telling bores me, so overall I'm not fond of his writing.

 

[FifthView]

Ah, I found that:

When writing the first page of your novel you must include a fairly hefty lure (the bigger and shinier the better) and a decent sized hook. The hook must be large enough that it keeps the reader engaged until they get to the next lure and hook (tension raising) which will then carry them along to the next one.

How many hooks (raising tension) does a book need? About one every page.

It's not quite the same as the later discussion, but it's pretty obvious this seeded the idea for me. I commented in that thread only a little afterward and would have read that!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Good one to add, I know this is one of those terms that goes way back. Screenwriting a couple decades ago, I think that was already widely used. Think there's even a book on writing (never read it) that deals with this. But the basic notion probably goes back further. Wouldn't surprise me if McKee spoke of it... Hard to say, but anyhow, a good term, the story promise.

I really liked how the term promise was used in the context of establishing reader expectations. I don't know if it's actually used by anyone else, but it's helped me a lot with the work I'm doing on my current WiP.

I'd say promise in this context is the promise between the story and the reader about what the story will deliver if the reader keeps on reading. Makes sense?

 

[FifthView]

The Writing Excuses crew uses promise regularly. That's where I first picked up on the idea, myself.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

I feel like TvTropes does a pretty good job with a lot of these words... I know that's generally how I learned about unkown words.

 

[Svrtnsse]

The Writing Excuses crew uses promise regularly. That's where I first picked up on the idea, myself.

I clearly should pay more attention to that - and other discussions of storytelling theory in general.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, noticed a while back Ches disappeared, didn't know anything was deleted. No idea what's up there.

Yeah, weird. I just checked too and she has no account at all. I've never seen that before. I wonder if she requested to be deleted? (Why do I feel a sci fi story coming on here now.....)

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, lots of people use promise. I first saw it in "save the cat" by Blake Snyder. He refers to keeping your "promise of the premise".

 

[Russ]

What do you mean by "Weasel Words"?

So Weasel Words are an unnecessary precursor that particularly tends to inflict lawyers who are switching to writing fiction (as if they weren't already doing that!). Lawyers who draft stuff will often try and leave themselves some wiggle room and can from time to time avoid being precise so that they are hard to pin down. It can also be caused by spending too much time around hyper-literalists on the inter web.

In fiction it can manifest itself as things such as "seemed like it was going fast" or "appeared to be gigantic in size".

I refer to them as Weasel Words, as in, "words that let you weasel out from actually saying something strong and to the point."

It really should go in the "recovering lawyers" handbook.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, Sanderson uses that in his BYU lectures too, forgot about that. I'm pretty sure it was a big deal in screenwriting because they're dealing with multi-million $ budgets, and one of the sure fire ways to lose those millions was to produce a movie that broke it's story "promise". My brain is struggling, it might've been a different term that basically meant the same thing. But it wasn't as simple as expectations, although those two things are very similar. Movies very rarely break promises anymore, accept of course any Will Farrell movie that promises to be funny, heh heh. Twist ending movies can certainly threaten to break promises, which makes them risky if not done well. So at least books get to take more risks than movies, heh heh.

A broken expectation movie was Clint Eastwood's The Beguiled, but that was more an advertising/hype issue than story issue.

The Writing Excuses crew uses promise regularly. That's where I first picked up on the idea, myself.

 

[FifthView]

I clearly should pay more attention to that - and other discussions of storytelling theory in general.

I don't know if there's a specific use that predates their use. (Writing Excuses.) They use it very broadly, in the sense that you can promise lots of things to a reader, not just what a story is going to be about. Something as simple as signaling plot turns, specific character interactions, whether a book is going to be humorous or serious, and so forth. Maybe GRRM's decision to have Bran shoved out the window was signaling the type of story he was telling; certainly, chopping off Ned Stark's head would've sealed the deal. Basically, raising the sort of expectations that usually require you to carry through.

 

[FifthView]

Twist ending movies can certainly threaten to break promises, which makes them risky if not done well.

In one podcast, Sanderson comments that the good twist endings still fulfill promises that have been made, just not in the way the reader expects.

But this gets tricky because there are ways to promise subtly, or to stick in enough foreshadowing that maybe you thought was one thing but was really promising another, and you only realize this at the end.

 

[Devor]

So Weasel Words are an unnecessary precursor that particularly tends to inflict lawyers who are switching to writing fiction (as if they weren't already doing that!). Lawyers who draft stuff will often try and leave themselves some wiggle room and can from time to time avoid being precise so that they are hard to pin down. It can also be caused by spending too much time around hyper-literalists on the inter web.

In fiction it can manifest itself as things such as "seemed like it was going fast" or "appeared to be gigantic in size".

I refer to them as Weasel Words, as in, "words that let you weasel out from actually saying something strong and to the point."

It really should go in the "recovering lawyers" handbook.

See, I like "Weasel Words" more than both "filtering" or "unnecessary precursors." It's broader, less formal, and not too high-concept. You're using these words to weasel out of saying something firmly and directly.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, weasel words are a common writer affliction outside of just lawyers. I've broken this in my own writing, but in real life my wife still has problems pinning me down on anything. Is the sky blue? Yeah, seems that way.

Filler words would be another good term to throw in, my favorite to hate being "that".

So Weasel Words are an unnecessary precursor that particularly tends to inflict lawyers who are switching to writing fiction (as if they weren't already doing that!). Lawyers who draft stuff will often try and leave themselves some wiggle room and can from time to time avoid being precise so that they are hard to pin down. It can also be caused by spending too much time around hyper-literalists on the inter web.

In fiction it can manifest itself as things such as "seemed like it was going fast" or "appeared to be gigantic in size".

I refer to them as Weasel Words, as in, "words that let you weasel out from actually saying something strong and to the point."

It really should go in the "recovering lawyers" handbook.

 

[Russ]

See, I like "Weasel Words" more than both "filtering" or "unnecessary precursors." It's broader, less formal, and not too high-concept. You're using these words to weasel out of saying something firmly and directly.

But in a strict sense Weasel Words are different from Filtering. If I was doing this mathematically I would suggest that filtering and WW are both subsets of the larger set of UPs. If that makes sense.

The idea of a promise to the reader goes back decades before Writing Excuses or Save the Cat (although I love them both).

I can tell you people were using the expression "promise to a reader" before the year 2000.

Some might ascribe it to Checkov or Hitchcock. Nancy Kress was teaching the idea years ago, as was David Morrell.

There was a great deal of thought about writing going on even before the internet I think...

Hey Demesnedenoir...clear some space in your PM box. I have some hot off the presses news for you.

 

[FifthView]

Another item that gets tossed around here, my editor brought my attention to this on some email I wrote... is that "prose" when used to discuss a writer's work tends to indicate their writing style, word choice, etc, as separate from the quality of the story told.

I had a problem–should I call it that?–of encountering something posted in Showcase and the author asking for comments on the "prose." I thought, whelp, that's a wide open door! There was also a question about tone, but I thought, how can tone be addressed without addressing the prose which leads to an experience of the tone?

 

[Aurora]

I had a problem—should I call it that?—of encountering something posted in Showcase and the author asking for comments on the "prose." I thought, whelp, that's a wide open door! There was also a question about tone, but I thought, how can tone be addressed without addressing the prose which leads to an experience of the tone?

Tone would just be a result of the combined elements...right? As a side note, I think that asking to be critiqued for prose only is dangerous. Story needs to come first! Of course, the quality of the narrative/prose/tone all of it leads to the clarity of the story, how a reader is able to decipher and relate to story. But if folks are only asking to be critiqued for prose instead of story, it's like asking to try the cake batter before the cake is baked, if you get what I mean.