Mythic Scribes Writing Jargon?

[Devor]

On the subject, I usually use "narrative" to refer to the "prose" itself - is that the right word or am I using it wrong or is it iffy or what?

 

[Russ]

On the subject, I usually use "narrative" to refer to the "prose" itself - is that the right word or am I using it wrong or is it iffy or what?

I do the same thing. So if it is wrong, at least you are not alone.

 

[FifthView]

Tone would just be a result of the combined elements...right? As a side note, I think that asking to be critiqued for prose only is dangerous. Story needs to come first! Of course, the quality of the narrative/prose/tone all of it leads to the clarity of the story, how a reader is able to decipher and relate to story. But if folks are only asking to be critiqued for prose instead of story, it's like asking to try the cake batter before the cake is baked, if you get what I mean.

The case in question was not a whole story but only an excerpt, I think. I do think tone results from combined elements, so I didn't feel too bad digging into the prose when I responded. I don't even know if tone can be considered a story element, per se? And with an excerpt, I'm not sure how story can be critiqued.

But I wasn't sure at the time if maybe my focus on the prose was not what was being sought.

D's mention of the difference between "prose" and "writing" makes me wonder if confusing these two could lead to misunderstandings when critiques are sought. Heck, if someone had said, "Is my writing good?" then I'd've probably been looking at the prose. It's not something I've given much thought to, this difference in terms.

 

[Aurora]

When someone asks if their writing is good, to me that's the same as asking if their story is good. They usually mean their prose ie narrative. My head tells me story. What I see a lot of new writers do is request to be critiqued and praised for pretty words, when readers could literally give two donkeys' bottoms about the prettiness of words. It's story that matters. It's characters that matter. It's plot that matters. It's delivering story promise that matters.

Totally off track here...but I meant to say prose=narrative and writing=story at least to me.

 

[FifthView]

On the subject, I usually use "narrative" to refer to the "prose" itself - is that the right word or am I using it wrong or is it iffy or what?

Lately, and this has been very lately, I've been thinking of "narrative" as the non-dialogue bits. I suppose that technically the dialogue is part of the narrative. But "exposition" doesn't work for the non-dialogue bits, because it's....the info-dumping or -dribbling bits, background or expository info?

 

[Svrtnsse]

Prose to me is the text itself. It's the words and sentences and paragraphs and how they're laid out to the reader. I'd say prose is the product of wordcrafting whereas narrative is the product of storytelling. It's very similar to just text, but there's some kind of nuance separating them that I can't quite put my finger on.

I was going to say that prose is "the words without the content" but I think that'd be taking it a bit too far.

 

[Steerpike]

I'd say prose is all of it--the writing overall, and applies equally to fiction or non-fiction. Narrative is also all of it, but to me implies a story, so I'd say narrative is the prose in fiction (EDIT: so, yes, I use the terms like Devor does). Exposition is explanatory--could be an infodump if handled improperly, could just be providing information. Dialogue is part of the narrative or prose, it's just a subset of either.

That's how I think of it, informally. If those definitions don't make sense for some reason I'm open to others.

 

[FifthView]

Well now I'm thinking maybe I should distinguish between narrative and narration, and whether this is merely splitting hairs.

I've been thinking that dialogue is what the characters say, but narrative/narration is what the narrator is saying. When the narrator is also a character, he may speak in dialogue also, when he's speaking aloud. (How all this affects telepathic speech and direct thoughts...heh, hmmm.)

Anyway, this explains a little more my previous comment.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

On the subject, I usually use "narrative" to refer to the "prose" itself - is that the right word or am I using it wrong or is it iffy or what?

Hmm, narrative would work for me also.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

If setting definitions for a discussion, you could easily set prose as the style/word choice, and then break that into dialogue (including direct thoughts) and narrative, while leaving story all to itself, LOL. This would make sense to me, actually, which might mean its a terrible idea.

But I could also see people taking narrative as the whole. Oh g'grief.

Lately, and this has been very lately, I've been thinking of "narrative" as the non-dialogue bits. I suppose that technically the dialogue is part of the narrative. But "exposition" doesn't work for the non-dialogue bits, because it's....the info-dumping or -dribbling bits, background or expository info?

 

[Devor]

I'd say prose is all of it--the writing overall, and applies equally to fiction or non-fiction. Narrative is also all of it, but to me implies a story, so I'd say narrative is the prose in fiction (EDIT: so, yes, I use the terms like Devor does). Exposition is explanatory--could be an infodump if handled improperly, could just be providing information. Dialogue is part of the narrative or prose, it's just a subset of either.

That's how I think of it, informally. If those definitions don't make sense for some reason I'm open to others.

I think I'm more confused now than ever.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Well now I'm thinking maybe I should distinguish between narrative and narration, and whether this is merely splitting hairs.

I would definitely distinguish between narrative and narration. Narration is what happens when no character is speaking (or thinking). Narrative is what the reader takes in when they're consuming the story.


Also - if you feel my definitions/impressions don't match what you're used to, feel free to disregard them (but also feel free to elaborate). As a non-native english speaker I'm no stranger to being wrong about what words really mean as opposed to what I feel they mean.

 

[FifthView]

If setting definitions for a discussion, you could easily set prose as the style/word choice, and then break that into dialogue (including direct thoughts) and narrative, while leaving story all to itself, LOL. This would make sense to me, actually, which might mean its a terrible idea.

But I could also see people taking narrative as the whole. Oh g'grief.

Until recently, I always thought of "narrative" as the whole shebang, but also added the element that Svrtnsse mentioned. There's a storytelling element to it that separates it from mere prose, heh.

Now, as I've worked through my own confusion in this thread, I think I might use "narration" to mean the non-dialogue bits, and reserve "narrative" for the whole shebang. Heck, "narrative" in this case might be prose + narration = narrative, insofar as that added bit, a narrator narrating with narration, adds the storytelling element, maybe.

But all this does raise up the point of what term we should use when referring to the non-dialogue bits. In a critique: "Your dialogue is excellent, but the narration needs some work." Heh. Anywho.

Edit: Svrtnsse, you commented while I was writing the above, heh.

 

[Aurora]

I would definitely distinguish between narrative and narration. Narration is what happens when no character is speaking (or thinking). Narrative is what the reader takes in when they're consuming the story.


Also - if you feel my definitions/impressions don't match what you're used to, feel free to disregard them (but also feel free to elaborate). As a non-native english speaker I'm no stranger to being wrong about what words really mean as opposed to what I feel they mean.

My mind has seriously fractured. Narration is the process of the narrative being formed. Eh? Ehhhh? *humor me please*

 

[Svrtnsse]

Edit: Svrtnsse, you commented while I was writing the above, heh.

These threads move real fast sometimes - these things happen. It seems we're largely i agreement though?

 

[FifthView]

These threads move real fast sometimes - these things happen. It seems we're largely i agreement though?

Yes, I think so!

 

[Gryphos]

Until recently, I always thought of "narrative" as the whole shebang, but also added the element that Svrtnsse mentioned. There's a storytelling element to it that separates it from mere prose, heh.

The way I see it,
Plot = the physical events that take place
Narrative = the framework, as it were, of how the events are made sense of
Story = the whole package

 

[Svrtnsse]

My mind has seriously fractured. Narration is the process of the narrative being formed. Eh? Ehhhh? *humor me please*

I'm gonna take a step back here. I think FifthView put it a bit more clearly in his post right after mine. There may be others more well versed in the lingo trying to straighten this out right this very moment.

 

[Svrtnsse]

My mind has seriously fractured. Narration is the process of the narrative being formed. Eh? Ehhhh? *humor me please*

Right, so trying to fob it off on someone else didn't work. Let's try this now then.

Narration as I (or FV) referred to it is the parts of the story that isn't said (or thought) by any of the characters in the story. Essentially it's everything that isn't in the words of characters in the story (dialogue lines, inner monologues, etc.).

Narrative (noun) is the story as consumed by the reader.

Narrative can also be an adjective, as in: The narration parts of the narrative are narrative.

 

[Heliotrope]

Which reminds me of another term FV and I debated a while back:

On the nose narrative.

It was the concept of the narrative feeling "on the nose" instead of simply dialogue being "on the nose".